Yeah, I mentioned something like that in my original post, but I meant simple and consistent in the show’s universe.
This might seem like little more than semantics, but… does christian holy water work against vampires? For all we know, the holy water that the Magic Box sells was blessed by Hecate or Osiris, not God. Catholic holy water might not work at all; I don’t have a clear recollection of it working on Buffy or Angel, but I haven’t seen every episode of either show (I’m working on it, though).
Crosses were adopted as a christian symbol because of the crucifixion of Christ. Crucifixion was/is a method of execution deliberately designed to be slow and painful (usually takes days). Perhaps they originally tried crucifying people on non-cross-shaped frames, but vampires kept stealing the condemned at night (after all, they would have been easy prey). Then someone had the idea of crucifying people on cross-shaped frames, since crosses ward off vampires (and could even before the crucifixion). Crosses may have been the symbol of an older, now-forgotten god, and that’s why they repel vampires. The fact that a christian cross symbol repels vampires is incidental.
Okay, so I’m just making this all up, but I don’t think Buffyverse canon contradicts my cross theory.
I hate to resurrect this discussion (no I don’t), but I just remembered something last night: Didn’t Angel’s hands burn when someone once handed him a Bible? This was in the episode where the hotel was introduced for the first time on the Angel show. Yet more evidence for my side.
Sorry, I just had to share that. You now have my permission to return to your grey and joyless lives.
That did happen but to be fair there was a cross on the cover of the book.
I just have to say, that’s damn clever.
Why thank you. :rolleyes:
As for what happened on Angel–shrug–I don’t know. I’ve only seen a handful of episodes.
But I did remember a hell dimension I forgot before. That brings the tally up to 4. Which one does Lucifer live in?
Actually, my contention is that the Gods didn’t create the universe: the universe just is. Gods are just some of its more powerful inhabitants.
I like to think that, based on the events of last season’s Angel, that Jesus was just like Jasmine, except that he figured out on his own that a living, Earthbound divinity would do more damage to mankind than good, and allowed himself to be sacrificed for our sakes.
ooooh, Miller, I like that theory.
My refrigerator, of course.
Who else turns that widdle, itty-bitty light on for me when I want some leftover mac and cheese in the middle of the night?
Certainly the agent of evil wouldn’t reveal the Glorious mac and cheese. God must be in there too.
Being Jewish, ;j I may be unclear on all the details but I thought that the Jasmine story intentionally used a lot of Christian symbols and references and some AntiChrist references. Jasmine gives up all this power and is born into the world as part of a plot to make the whole world love her and satisfy her ego. JC(again correct me if I’m wrong here) gave up power and was born into the world as part of a plot to make the whole world love God and eachother and because he was willng to sacrifice himself for the sake of others.
Jesus' blood, shed on the cross and drank at communion is the way to truth and salvation.
Jasmine’s blood also grants a revelation-that she is a rotting, maggot-ridden monster, and that her love is a lie.
pepperlandgirl, you’ve never heard of a certain Divine Comedy? Not that Dante’s work is considered canonical by the Catholic Church, but the idea of different levels of hell is one shared across many religions. It wouldn’t be a stretch to posit that it would be true for the Christian afterlife in Buffy’s world.
DocCathode- right on all counts!
I’m reviving this thread because a thought struck me :smack:.
The vampire bites the human. Either the human dies or becomes a vampire too, through the sireing process. The soul is replaced with the demon essence (or whatever, this is not important now). What happens to the human soul? Heaven or hell?
Now that is an interesting question. The only two who could tell us are Spike and Angel, and they ain’t saying. Given that neither of them said anything about where “they” were before their souls came back, my impression was always that they were in some sort of limbo. Neither a heaven or a hell dimension.
The human soul goes to “the ether.” You can call it out of the ether with the orb. I can find the exact quote—I believe Angel references it in Passion.
Ahhh, here it is.
Of course, one could argue that since the corpse that the vampire demon lives in, reanimates, is … well dead, then the original soul has gone off to where it belongs - i.e. good guy to heaven, bad guy to hell. Judging by how Spike and Angel lived, I would presume that Liams soul was in hell and the soul of William the Bloody was in heaven.
But then, that doesn’t make sense either, because Angel is tormented by guilt fram having a soul. And a soul that’s been to hell wouldn’t be like that, would it? And Spike? Well if his soul was in heaven, then he would surely be tormented by Spike’s evil.
So I guess they were in limbo. But then, do all souls from people being turned to vamps end up in limbo? That doesn’t seem fair, does it?
I know the vampire world in generall and the Joss-Verse in particular, are full of inconsistencies. But I find the subject intriguing, non the less. Maybe because I’ve been having a few beers tonight, while burning all the Ats and BtVS ep’s I had on the hard drive, to free some space.
BTW, S.5 of BtVS is looking better, the more I think about it. And the ending was the perfect ending for the franchise. Very poetic.
Ahh. But Buffy’s soul went to heaven (or some such). Why would the soul of a person who’s a victim of a vampire assault spend time in the ‘ether’?
Most of the vampires we’ve got to know agreed to be sired. That’s one explanation. But I doubt all of them actually agreed. Though it’s not shown explicitly, I don’t think Jesse gave his consent to Darla in ‘Welcome to the Hellmouth’.
Hasn’t Holtz commented on killing vampires largely in order to send their souls to hell?
I think being stuck in the ether makes sense. The vampire’s body is neither alive nor dead. Their soul is neither in this dimension or the afterlife.
Makes perfect sense to me, DocCathode.
Buffy’s soul could have gone to the ether. We don’t know. She only thought she was in heaven—I’m assuming any place where she could rest, where she didn’t have to fight anymore, would be heavenly to her.