Thanks, both of you.
I thought lying required one already knew the truth.
–I guess we must be Vampires too since we drink his blood.—
Don’t laugh until you’ve read a hilariously poorly written comic book on just this subject called “The Last Days of Christ the Vampire”
http://freespace.virgin.net/questing.beast/eccarius.htm
If you think about it, the vampire myth fits pretty amusingly well: he dies, but rises from the dead eternal. He enters in and controls the wills of his obedient followers, and they too are promised eternal life by drinking his blood (metaphorically and litterally). Crosses are bad stuff for him.
Not sure about the garlic though… 
—I thought lying required one already knew the truth.—
Not according to Lincoln’s maxim. Talking about something authoritatively when you know that you don’t actually have any real claim to knowing the truth is most certainly lying, and even the actual truth of what you might be saying wont exonerate the dishonesty.
It’s your humble opionion that they’re lies. Does’t make it so. Someday you may find that I wasn’t so ignorant after all. Who knows?
You miss hte point. **Monty ** wasn’t saying that your contention that the Mormon faith is wrong is a lie–like you said, who knows?–he was saying that your description of Mormon beliefs is a lie (which I disagree with–I’m going with ignorance, not deceit.).
What if I said that the Baptist faith is wrong, and I know this is so because they worship Jerry Falwell. That’s two separate statements:
A. The Baptist faith is wrong
B. They worship Jerry Falwell
Now it could well be that the Baptists are dead wrong, but they do not worship Jerry Falwell. If I attempt to bolster my case against the Baptists by saying something about them that is manifestly untrue, the Baptists (and everybody else) would be justified in dismissing me as an ignorant person.
Same thing with the LDS folks. Now it could be that they are absolutely wrong (which is so IMO–ancient Jews did not settle the Americas), but if you attribute beliefs to them that they don’t actually hold, your argument is going to be dismissed.
I recommend that you get some books on the Mormons, find out what they really believe, as opposed to the halftruths and inaccuracies spread by the anti-LDS folks, and THEN you can refute their faith with knowledge.
[sub]Of course, the Utah Mormons are a pack of heretics; just ask the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints :)[/sub]
Um, well I know. The claims you have listed are traditional anti-Mormon lies about us. I’ve rebutted then time and time again (as many other LDS have). How pathetic to make factual claims and then state “who knows.”
You see, facts are objective. People who don’t have an axe to grind can find out if they are true or not. For instance, you could have found how bizarre
is by asking, and finding out that we believe that Lucifer’s rebellion and subsequent begin cast out of heaven means he didn’t receive a mortal body like we have–in other words, he has no blood.
Were you to investigate objectively, you would be able to easily find the difference between bizarre anti-Mormon claims and actual LDS theology.
Thank you, Senor Torquemada. You realize, I trust, that with that sentence, you have allied yourself with the Inquisition, the Cheka, the Red Guards, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazis and every other other outfit that arrogated to itself the right to destroy those who hold what they considered to be “opinions based on lies.”
<< sigh >>
<< translates Fundie-speak >>
“Someday you and I will both be standing before the Pearly Gates, and the Book of Life will be opened, and I will be allowed to go forward into Heavenly Joy, and you, all of you atheists and heathens and Mormons, will not, you will be cast down into Hell to burn forever in the Lake of Fire whose flames never die.”
Did I get it right?
<< sigh >>
If I didn’t get the translation right–if I’m reading too much into it and that wasn’t what you were thinking when you posted it–then I do apologize, and I would like to know what you meant, then, by “someday”. “Someday” when? When will all the people here who think that your ideas about the Mormons are ignorant find out that you aren’t (and this includes me, I’ll admit)? When the leadership of the LDS church stands up and makes a speech saying that yes, all the things that Thelma Greer said about them in her book are true? Because that’s what it would take to convince me.
But if I did get it right, well, telling people they’re going to burn in Hell for disagreeing with you is counter-productive to the purpose of this message board, and to this forum in particular. It’s called Great Debates. “Debate” means talking back and forth, exchanging ideas, not running for comfort to the idea that “all these heathens are going to burn in Hell forever anyway”. You can think that if you want to, but don’t post it. It isn’t going to change anybody’s mind and furthermore, it makes you lose credibility points. All the atheists and heathens and Mormons are just going to go, " :rolleyes: " and dismiss you and your ideas as the mouthings of yet another religious fanatic.
You know, it’s no crime (or sin) to admit that maybe you had some incorrect facts on file about the Mormons, like, “Wow, I really got hold of the wrong end of the stick on that one–thanks to the Teeming Millions for straightening me out!” I’ve had to eat crow myself a few times, when somebody here called me on something I posted that wasn’t correct. I’m, like, “Whoa, that was embarrassing, but hey, thanks for setting me straight.” If you can’t take that kind of heat, then maybe you should go find another message board.
At any rate, I’m glad to see that you’ve decided to come back and talk to us (and with us), but you need to understand that you may never actually persuade anyone here that you are right, about anything. Very few Great Debate threads wind up with somebody eventually posting, “Okay, you persuaded me, I’ve changed my mind.” At best all we ever hope for in the religion threads is a civilized discussion, with everybody being polite and eventually “agreeing to disagree”.
And P.S. Mormons are still Christians, IMO, so they at least wouldn’t be standing there with you. 
Re: His4Ever’s declaration of Mormon beliefs.
She hasn’t said anything outlandish, I’ve read the same things from multiple sources. Either there is a Great Anti-Mormon Conspiracy or something’s rotten in the state of Salt Lake.
Mormons are known for ahhh … concealing the facts about what they REALLY believe in order to get new converts.
How likely would YOU be to join them if they told you up front that God (who used to be a man just like you) is an alien on the planet Kolob and oh, by the way … if you’re a woman you can’t get into heaven unless your husband calls your secret name?
If you want the truth, check out www.exmormon.org sometime.
Oh wait … that’s right. They’re ex-Mormons … so they must have some vendetta, right? I bet they sit around and make up stuff, yeah, that’s it … we should only listen to official representatives of the Mormon church if we want the real scoop, right???
Well, yes, actually, WV_Woman. If I wanted to hear an accurate description of what Moslems believe, I would not ask a Hindu, I would ask a Moslem. I might go get some books written by Moslems on what they believe.
Likewise, if you want to know what Fundamentalists believe, it’s a good idea to go ask a fundamentalist, rather than, say, one of the many people who were raised fundamentalist and have since left with bitter feelings, for whatever reason. Someone who isn’t actually a fundamentalist is quite likely to say something like “fundies all spend their free time shooting doctors who give abortions.” That is not a true statement, is it?
Mormons get very tired of people trying to cast tham as some sort of sci-fi cult waiting for the aliens to come get them, because it’s simply not an accurate portrayal of LDS beliefs. You may enjoy www.jefflindsay.com, which has a nice FAQ about stuff like that. But, oh yes, he’s actually a Mormon, which means he’s lying about what he believes. Once again, all this belongs on the thread I linked above.
Okay, in the pursuit of truth, I will go read what Jeff has to say.
Drat, the comma got in there. www.jefflindsay.com
admit it, genie, you guys have all that food stocked away to feed the aliens after their long intergalactic trip.
Drat, we’ve been discovered!
There can be no opinions when it comes to facts. Either something is factual, or it is a lie. You posted things about Catholicism, Mormonism and other groups you despise, and they were not factual. Therefore they were lies.
You claimed, I believe, that Catholics worship Mary. That is a lie.
You claimed all sorts of hoo ha about Mormonism, which were also lies.
How can we prove that they’re lies? Because when you’re talking about the doctrines of a religion there is only one source of information that matters – the doctrinal statements of the religion itself. What you said about Catholics and Mormons goes directly against what the Catholic and Mormon churches teach in their official documents. They are right. They are the only source of facts on the issue.
Ergo, you are wrong, and cannot even possibly claim to be in the right.
**
Well, when it comes to Catholicism, I know, because I know the actual doctrines of the Church pretty much backward and forward, and actually done something you’ve never done: read them from the source. Don’t try to sell me any carp about Catholicism unless you can back it up with evidence from at least the Catholic Catechism, or preferably the Documents of the Second Council of the Vatican.
Stupid comic books by liars like Alberto Rivera (who was never even a priest) and Jack Chick do not define what the Catholic Church teaches. Only she defines what she teaches. So if you want to argue her teachings, the only valid source for facts are her own documents.
I’m sure the resident Mormons would say the same thing: Unless you can back up your charges with evidence from the D&C, the Pearl of Great Price, and other official Mormon sources, then you’re not trading in facts, you’re spreading myths and lies.
I have no problem with people who disagree with Catholicism, so long as they actually know what they’re talking about. But ignorant liars have no defense and deserve no audience.
Kirk
Thought H4E was bailing out of the board for a while?
What the hey.
H4E:
You assert that something is a fact when you do not know if it is a fact or not a fact. That makes it a lie. As another poster said, there can be no opinion regarding the veracity of a fact.
And as emark showed, it wouldn’t have taken all that much effort on your part to find out if what some bigot tells you we believe is actually what we believe.
In short, you’re not only a liar, you’re a lazy liar.
Oh my! I’m being flame broiled again!! Turn me over and pass the mustard and onions please!
His4ever-get off the cross. Somebody needs the wood.
If you insist on sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, “La la la la la!” every time we tell you that Jack Chick is DEAD WRONG about Catholicism, that Catholics do NOT WORSHIP MARY, then expect to be roasted. Which you haven’t been. Not even. Please.
Now then, Kirkland, what IS the deal on Rivera? Just curious.
Being presented with facts is being flame broiled? Dang, sure hope Burger King doesn’t find out about that!