Calling all Homosexuals and Christians

Great Debates
61

All religious arguments aside, I don’t understand what basis the government has to restrict legal marriage to heterosexuals. Every argument I hear against it is based on particular religious views (even if they use the term moral grounds), which have no place in legislation.

During the presidential debates, both Gore and Lieberman stated that they were against opening marriage laws to gays, but that some sort of comparable institution should be set up for them. How insulting to gays to suggest that they are entitled to the same types of benefits as the rest of us, but just not the particular ones we have! I don’t see that type of social separation as being significantly different from the use of separate water fountains, separate restrooms, etc., that insulted a different group of people a few decades back.

If all are equal, as stipulated in the constitution, then the proper form of marriage for gays is just plain ol’ marriage. No qualifiers, no modifiers.

62

I’m not very big on talking about my faith, but I feel a need to defend that people can be gay and Christian.

The simple, snide answer is that I know because I am one.

To elaborate more:

I know because my church has within it several gays and lesbians, quite a few of whom are respected as elders and teachers.

I know because almost every Christian denomination has an organization of gay Christians in that denomination.

I know because there I have met gay priests and ministers.

I know because I tried to turn my back on my faith. When I was younger and struggling with my sexual orientation, I wanted to be straight very badly. Painfully so. There were nights where I would literally pray until I passed out from exhaustion at my bed. Leviticus burned itself into my brain. I felt like I was a freak and unworthy of God’s love.

I wanted to change with all my heart and soul. Nothing would have made me happier. I tried everything I could think of. I even became increasingly involved with several fundamentalist Christians. I call it my “fundie” stage, wherein I tried to Bible-thump away the whole bit about liking girls.

Obviously, I didn’t change. For some time I was convinced that there was no God or that I was being ignored.

Finally, though, I reached the inescapable conclusion that I didn’t change simply because being gay is just who I am. It’s the way I was made. That’s what I believe, and I’m sticking to it.

It’s been my experience that people’s religious beliefs are intricate and complex. I don’t think I can or even want to explain my entire belief system.

I will say that I think that the message of the New Testament is best described as being about love. Jesus personified love. His teachings were of love.

No, I’m not a Biblical literalist. I don’t think that the earth was created in our concept of a week. I don’t take it word for word, because I feel the Bible is word imperfect because it is written by humanity. I don’t think that any element of the Bible can really be justified by quoting one verse.

This is already entirely too long. What it comes down to in my mind is that it’s not incompatible. I know many people who feel the same way, from my heterosexual minister to my family to my Jewish best friend, who has faced a similar struggle with her own faith and lesbianism.

63

As a footnote:

Separate but equal is never equal.

64

I’m not dodging your questions esprix, you just refuse to see the obvious! But I know you cannot make someone see something they refuse to see! I will leave it alone cause I know you will see it one day, one way or another.

65

I am sorry for your pain andygirl! We as a whole are unworthy of GODS love, but the great thing is that he loves us regardless, even when some choose to ignore him!
Your right, not all things are to be taken literally: when they say ‘lampstand’ it doesn’t mean aactual lampstand, when they say ‘lamb’, it doesn’t always mean a lamb. I am not a Biblical literalist either, but there are things you learn as you grow and ask questions. How do you know who to ask? Well, you know when someone and something is true in your heart, it should NEVER be questionable in your mind or heart! GOD will not let it be. You will definately know! The church I follow is non-denomination, and to be quite honest, I do not think there are any gays or lesbians in that church. Not because my Pastor would refuse them, cause he wouldn’t at all, not because the people attending wouldn’t accept them, cause they would, but because the pastor preaches the truth. When there was a situation involving homosexuality or fornication in the Bible, no good ever came from it, and it was considered sexually immoral!
I met you andygirl, and I think you are a great person! I would hang out with you again in a minute. As you know, I am your average 24 year old, and GOD knows I am so far from being ‘holy’, you may not know I feel the way I do by meeting me, and I wouldn’t push anything on anyone! If you ask a question, like anyone, I would answer it the best I can. You are right, the NT is about love, but not just love. It’s way to involved to just say love. It’s a shame that we all can’t be perfect like ESPRIX. Oh well…

66

Jersey, you say its the truth. Its actually your interpretation of the truth.

As for wether or not god said it. I generally look for miracles before proof of god. If the bible records some guy saying it with no backing then thats exactly what it is. The bible is a historical document, not every word in it is said by god.

Seperate but equal is not equal. However simply using a diffrent term for same sex relationships is not seperate IMHO.

67

Romans isn’t what Jesus had to say. It’s what Paul had to say. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the argument as begun.

Anyway:

Okay, conservatives have changed my mind. Allowing gay marriage, I have been persuaded, will destroy the family, weaken Western civilization, turn America into Sodom and Gomorrah, increase the trade deficit with Japan, endanger the family farm and promote tooth decay. The impeccable logic of conservative opponents is simply too powerful to deny.

68

grienspace:

?? Registered? Not sure I follow. Why not just make it all “marriage” in the eyes of the state, as the secular world doesn’t care, and leave the “holy” marriages to the churches? That way, if you want to be married in the eyes of God, you may, and if you want the benefits and restrictions that accompany secular marriage, you may have that as well.

69

Jersey, I did ask you to comment on some interpretation of Scripture on page one. This is not just anti-Biblical garbage, which I would not post; it’s my considered opinion of what those passages say to people like andygirl.

I’d further add that Scripture does not condemn intimate love between two men or women in any place; it condemns gratification of lust (i.e., unbridled gratification of sexual appetite) in the same sense as it condemns gluttony (i.e., unbridled gratification of alimentary appetite). And, while some people (e.g., diabetics) may have to manage their appetite carefully for health, and some may feel called to fast, in general the enjoyment of good food in reasonable moderation, with some feasts and some periods of taking it easy, is not gluttony, and the proper use of sex for the celebration of love with a committed partner is not lust. Both are the misuse of a healthy appetite. That David and Jonathan loved each other and showed this in their physical behavior is explicit in Scripture (which does not suggest they had sexual relations) and is not condemned. Further, you might consider the implication of what John calls himself in his gospel – I read it as that he provided Jesus with the intimate companionship that two spouses provide each other in a good marriage and that the occasional deep same-sex friendship will give its members. By which I am not saying “Jesus was gay” (in your dreams, McLaughlin!! :D) but that, unable to take a wife due to his mission, and being subject to human needs like us (whatever else he may have been), he found in John’s loyalty and friendship that intimate loving support that virtually all of us need, and long for when we don’t have it.
Matt_mcl said, ironically:

Comments:

(1) Well, certainly God, who called Jesus and Paul to celibacy and honored Jacob and his wives, never had anything in mind but the modern nuclear family, with husband, wife, 3.2 children, dog, and cat. (I’ve always wondered why conservatives never advocate special education programs for that 0.2 kid – having only a fractional body has got to be a major handicap!)
(2) Nah. Conservatives don’t care whether we’re turned into Sodom and Gomorrah. Or at least they find the Biblical command to “offer hospitality to the stranger at your gate” not applicable to most immigrants – “send the spics and gooks back where they belong” – a sentiment I’d take seriously only from Ben Nighthorse Campbell, whom I don’t believe espouses it. The rest of us, being from immigrant families, should have little to say on the subject.
(3) Well, everyone knows that all gays have excellent fashion taste, and will decorate tastefully with Japanese imports. They may have a point there. :rolleyes:
(4) Another good point. I trust it you’ve seen the genre of gay porn where the hero meets this hunky farm boy… :wink:
(5) You’re supposed to wash with soap before oral sex. Who knows where that thing’s been before you put it in your mouth? :smiley:

70

He weaves! He dodges! Kid JerseyDiamond can’t be touched!

:rolleyes:

I agree, let’s leave it alone, because you give me a headache.

Esprix

71

Child, if you want to take this to The Pit, I’d be more than happy to accommodate you. Otherwise, stuff a sock in it.

Esprix

72

Memo to all who have a problem with “Christians vs. gay marriage”:

I am a Christian. A very devout and sincere one, IMHO. And I have a major problem with those who take certain stances on how they understand Scripture arrogating exclusive rights to “what Christians should think.”

I am fairly certain that homosexuals sin. I am quite certain that heterosexuals sin. And I’m reasonably certain that celibate people sin. (And you bisexuals can jump into whatever category suits you from the above; I haven’t forgotten you either.)

And I am absolutely certain that I sin.

When I finally get to the point where I am no longer sinful, I will concern myself with deciding whether in my opinion somebody else about whom I know little more than his or her sexual orientation is sinning by being or doing whatever he or she happens to be and do. Do feel free to call me for my opinion on this; you’ll know it’s time to do so because the pigs will be flying north on their spring migrations.

I humbly urge that procedure of behavior on my fellow Christians. With an eye to the idea that while St. Paul may have discussed what in his (possibly inspired) opinion constituted moral behavior, Jesus was quite explicit about getting the timber out of one’s own eye before one looks for dustmotes in someone else’s.

73

Just a somewhat belated notice that Barbara Walters is tackling the issue of what it is like to be raised by gay parents this evening on ABC.