On a serious side. Sorry if poorly written, it is late and I have been working too much.
I am a ferverent supporter of Israel. I truly believe that while Israel has its shortcomings, as do many countries in the world (even the USA, by god!), it is head and shoulders against the dictatorships and monarchies that surround it. The USA claims many of these neighbors for allies, but I sincerely believe that their structure of government does not allow for the trust afforded to Israel. I also believe that their alleigance to the USA can turn overnight with the whims of their leader. I also feel that while it is often masked well by the government, the populaces of many of those countries contain large, violent anti-American movements. If such movements exist in Israel, I am unaware of them. By and large the Israeli populace adores all things American, IMHO.
I do think that apart from the purported high minded goals of American foreign policy (promoting peace, providing for human rights, yada), policy is subject to the whim of the populace. The whim of the populace is determined by economics and demographics.
The Arab-American population is growing faster than the Jewish population and will overtake them someday. It is somewhat economically unfavorable for the US to continue to support Israel at its current level.
What will happen when it is no longer the will of the voters to support Israel? While Israel’s economy is growing quickly, by no means is the country self-sufficient. They depend on the USA for defense in many areas. With a change in the population, arguments to cut off support like Brian’s above tirade (albeit in a more logical manner) IMHO will become more common until they are popularly accepted.
This is why I am hoping for peace in the region, preferably within a few years (although not at current terms). I feel if Israel cannot make lasting peace with its neighbors before it is no longer in the USA’s interest to continue support, Israel has no chance. Even with nukes and a powerful army.
I just thought that should be said. Sorry if in the wrong place. Just trying to salvage some intellegent discussion.
Doc, again, I have encountered people who think Israel is key to the US “owning” the middle-east and your modest proposals are taken very seriously in Bibleland. Also, I am deeply concerned that people in the US are being played for fools, by being conservatized to think that state and religion matter more and more. This happens one day at a time, when news stories lead in with a middle-east spot, over and over, as if it’s the center of the universe. Not mine any longer. Thanks.
Magdalene, thanks for the kind words.
Freedom2troll,
How is it your alter ego got banned but not you?
I just dropped in to permanently withdraw from the thread. I don’t want to ignore the fact that somebody did something terribly wrong, nor should you. I respectfully request that everyone examine their ethics on trolling and what goes on in the BBQ pit, which is the limitation of this entire site. It seems to taint everything else and draw those least able to converse cordially to the site.
{blowing in the wind} Care to explain that comment?
Given your track record on how reality matches up to the way things seem to you, I’m willing to bet real money that the probability is you’re wrong yet again.
Why do I get the feeling that BB left this thread, not because he wouldn’t know a fact if it jumped up and bit him, but because he needs time to fashion an attractive and functional tinfoil hat to keep his thoughts safe from the SDMB Poser Kollektiv[sup]TM[/sup] and the Bavarian Illuminati that control the government via fundamentalist cyborgs?
Sometimes when a premise is so fundamentally flawed on myriad levels, one can lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Allow me to step back and ask a BIG QUESTION:
“Should we dismantle Israel?” Who’s ‘we?’ Who dismantles any country?
“Dear Namibia:
We took a vote, and you are hearby ordered to evict by Saturday. We’re getting the big pencil eraser out and erasing your borders.
Sincerely,
Acme Nation-Eradicators”
Echo and the Bunnyhurt? You, sir, are a coward. Back up your statements with facts. Engage in debate. Respond to people’s counter-assertions to your (non-fact-based) assertions.
That second word in the forum title can be a verb, too.
Zionism, with Jewish control of Palestine, and “the right of return”, is a hare-brained idea to begin with!
I like to say it’s like every single person of Anglo-Saxon culture demanding to be repatriated to Saxony (formerly part of E. Germany) and crowding out the modern Saechsisch population.
Of course, the way it played out, it’s probably even worse.
Unfortunately, by now there are two generations of Israelis with no other homeland–in many cases no-whither else to go. So the OP’s solution doesn’t work so well for them.
I favor detaching the government of Palestine from the racial-religious identity of the Jews, abolishing the “right of return” for Jews, etc.–but it ain’t gonna happen. Basically, sooner or later, someone will just sweep these people into the sea. Probably not Arafat, but a later generation of zealot.
And Jews will probably be barred for decades thereafter from entering most Arab nation-states. In effect, Jews will be worse off in that part of the world than ever.
As I’ve noted before, there is a legitimate debate about Israel’s right to exist, and I would be glad to debate the issue with you.
But not in this thread. For the sake of your own argument, and for the hope that we could have one free of the taint of Bunnyhurt, I suggest you start a new thread on the subject. I’ll see you in there.
OK, Sua, I’ll start my own thread. Really, I’d had an idea for a thread on the state of Israel’s possible doom earlier today, so Bunny’s goofy proposal caught my eye.
I will say this, though.
Oil prices are a separate animal from anti-Israelism.
The U.S. uses petroleum at unsustainable levels, and the fossil fuels will get scarcer and more expensive–are doing so as we speak.
And the OPEC countries have every right to charge as much as they wish. It’s their mineral heritage, & they’ve been fortunate enough & smart enough not to let it fall into the hands of U.S. corporations.