Vadar has a build more like an olympic powerlifter. He is bug and thick all over, and you can tell he is strong as an ox, but he’s not cut. I certainly would not call him “fat”. I was referring more to people like the thankfully departed Viscera, Yokozuna, King Kong Bundy and people like that.
I’m glad that Vince got it through his head that giant fatass != good wrestler.
heh, make that “bug” say “big”.
He is not bug all over. 
I’m with you on the Viscera, Bundy thing, but Yoko?
Yokozuna could work when he wanted to. He put on some EXCELLENT matches with Bret Hart. Granted, the “Hitman” carried him through those, but any wrestler that can be carried (unlike Viscera, who couldn’t be carried by Ric Flair in his prime) to a decent match can’t be all that bad.
Bam Bam Bigelow, while not exactly a superb worker, did display a pretty good amount of agility.
And Vader might be thick all over, but that big round thing that constitutes the front of his body is not a set of large abdominal muscles. I guess we could compromise and say that he’s one of those muscle & fat powerhouse types.
And I agree that Vince having apparently lost his “big fat guy” fetish is a good thing. I pray that we never have to put up with another John Tenta (Earthquake, Golga) push.
Don’t agree with Yokozuna. He was CARRIED completely by Hart, and I think that Viserca/Mabel could have been the standin with no loss in quality in those matches. JMO, as usual.
Agreed on Bigelow, he has done some good work.
Yes, Vadar does have a gut, put you can tell that he’s a strong, strong man. I wouldn’t put him in the uber-fat catgory like the others I listed, that was my point. I agree with “muscle & fat powerhouse types.”
I keep waiting for THE SHOCKMASTER’S return! 
Howyadoin,
I demand that this cockgobbling thread be moved! This nostril-raping piece of elephant dung has no place in the Pit. Hey, we gave you Debate Club weenies your own place to mentally masturbate, now fuckin USE IT!
Screw, yahearme? SCREW!!
-Rav
Yes, mouthbreather. I also said that Yoko was carried by Hart. My point was that a wrestler who CAN be carried isn’t all that bad. Some wrestlers can’t be carried at all.
Well, my point about scar tissue is this, Zaphod. You don’t ever grow much more muscle tissue. A lot of an increase in perceived muscle bulk is due to scarring. Hence the swollen look being referred to as “mounds of scar tissue.” I still don’t consider them athletes, either, because there’s no competition involved.
I saw that you mentioned that, sorry if it seemed like I didn’t read your post. I guess when I am saying someone got carried I mean it as much more of an insult than you. Yes, I agree that a wreslter who can be carried is better than one who can’t. But to me, it’s like saying that a mosquito bite is better then a snakebite. Yes, one is much better than the other, but it doesn’t mean I want either of them.
And Trucido, your selective responses are somewhat annoying.
Sorry for that, Mouthbreather, I’m not intending to be selective, I’m just a bit on the absent-minded side.
Let’s see. I don’t consider professional wrestlers to be athletes. They may indeed practice a grueling training regimen. However, it’s not the same sort of training regimen that a Greco-Roman wrestler or a rower might undergo. They have to worry about maintaining a physical appearance in addition to strength and endurance. Perhaps my personal distaste for the body-builder aesthetic is interfering with my judgement. Most really strong people I’ve met did not immediately appear as such, and athletes of most types develop along entirely different body lines from a professional wrestler.
However, the belief that wrestlers are not athletes stems primarily from my competition argument. A pro wrestler’s training is entirely personal in nature- the professional wrestler must meet a set of endurance criteria that he has some, if not all, part in setting. Athletes enter a competition with little or no idea of what they are to expect, and must be prepared for all contingencies. They must train with an eye towards constant improvement, as a guard against every other athlete doing the same. They lack the clearly defined set of physical thresholds that a wrestler must exceed.
As a case in point, look at fastest mile times. The world record tends to go up. However, in the case of professional wrestling, I am unaware of any such standard which can be improved upon, except perhaps match length (which I was under impression was predetermined, with a maximum fixed by the rules.
I can’t be mad at being absent-minded, because I can be the king of that.
I have heard the “not an athlete” argument before. While I don’t agree with it, I do very clearly see that side of it. I don’t have a problem with you saying that they are not athletes. I did have a problem with you saying that they weren’t “physically gifted”.
And training WRT competition: I see the point you are trying to make, but let me put it to you this way: If Tri-athlete X and Wrestler Y both train / workout / condition for 3 hours every day, is the Tri-athlete doing more? I understand how you can think that the “legit competition” factor is not there for the wrestlers, but in many cases I would argue that that does not at all make them any less dedicated to their training regimen. The fact that they may (or may not) have some part in setting their endurance criteria does not mean they are going to go about it half-assedly. There are some wrestlers who have/had a reputation for their heart not really being in the business (Goldberg), but there are also wrestlers who eat, sleep, drink, piss, sweat, and bleed wrestling. Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels(he used to, anyway), HHH, and several others come to mind. It may sound corny to a non-fan, but people like this take great pride in being able to put on the best show possible. And once they gain a reputation for being in that elite class, it becomes a matter of matching or outdoing each other, so I would argue that there is some competition involved (albeit not the actual “fighting” in the ring).
Well, I just had to add my 2 cents into this conversation… hopefully I don’t step on Trucido’s toes, as his debating strategies far outweigh my own ability.
I was outwardly laughing at the few examples of “educated” wrestling fans, who were posing the question: “How can you prove the audience is uneducated… etc, etc…”
I wouldn’t make the outrageous claim that they are uneducated, but it seems that each time I flip by TNT or TNN, I see an interview with a young kid (who may or may not have a few teeth left) rambling on about how great The Rock is or how he can’t wait to see China (sp?) in a bikini. I stare at the screen in amazement when I see this. It’s like I’m viewing a human anomaly. This guy is so involved in this wrestling world… I’m almost positive that the line between reality and fiction is completely blurred for him.
I believe the people who “look down” upon this sport, do so because they wonder why the fans haven’t moved on to something more fulfilling. When you are a child you don’t want to sit and watch an entire baseball game. You don’t want to go to a concert and listen to a group play for 3 hours. However, you wouldn’t mind going to see a bunch of zany characters jump around and yell at each other for a while. I have no problem with this… as long as the fans accept that it is a “childish” form of entertainment. As I matured, I started looking for better ways to entertain myself. After 5 years of watching guys jump around in their underwear, I was looking for something else. How can people be wrapped up in this for most of their adult lives?
As Trucido argued, there is absolutely no mental stimulation whatsoever. They are just hitting you (the wrestling fans) in the face with steroids and shiny nylon underwear, and calling it entertainment. Yet you spend millions and maybe billions of dollars on shirts, bumper stickers, tickets, etc, etc…
I find it almost troublesome, because the only scenario I can envision in my head is the executive of the wrestling league sitting in his mansion flinging hundred dollar bills into his fire place while shaking his head and laughing about how he has earned his money (geez, that was a run-on sentence if I’ve ever seen one). I see him thinking to himself: “I wonder if I can get people to pay me for something even more preposterous than this?” Sadly, the answer is probably yes, if he just markets it to the right (wrong?) crowd.
BP
I think that I wrote the ‘not physically gifted’ bit without fully thinking it through. I grant that professional wrestlers must possess certain physical gifts. Thse physical gifts, however, are different from those required by an athlete, and relate primarily to ability to put on a show. It also bothers me that the overmuscled, oversculted image is constantly related to strength.
As for training regimens, the regimen required to build strength and endurance is not the same as one designed to achieve a desired physique. Body-building is different from strength training, and some gains in strength are lost in the process.
Think of the XFL. How did that look to you? Probably pretty damn silly. That’s how wrestling appears to a lot of people.
Big Perm (I love that name, BTW (It’s WORM, NOT PERM!))
That’s fine, as long as you don’t project that on to all wrestling fans.
I have never tried to defend wrestling by saying it is going to make you smarter. But as have said before, it is going to seem stupid if you try to intellectualize it, as is 90% of everything else on TV. Think an episode of Will & Grace or Survivor in Africa or The King of Queens is going to raise your IQ?
I watch a lot of TLC, Discovery, the History Channel, etc. Sometimes I want to learn.
Sometimes I don’t want to be mentally stimulated – Wrestling does the trick nicely in these situations.
Wrapped up? What does that mean? Something that I do for maybe 5 hours a week? (4 hours of TV and an hour or so of internet).
Would you feel better if on Mondays I watched *Yes, Dear , Becker, Everybody Loves Raymond, *and Bette instead of RAW? And if on Thursdays if I tuned into Survivor and Charmed instead of Smackdown, would I be a more mature person?
Like TNG?
Riverdance?
Really, I am seeing a lot of references to wrestling being lowbrow, with little explanation or example of acceptable entertainment for “educated” people.
Personally, if being “educated” requires one to act pompous and presumptuous you can stick it. “Educated” people realize they don’t need to “act” superior, let alone belittle others.
By the by, how did Monster Trucks get lumped in with WWF, or is this just another Redneck generalization?
copy/paste:
“Would you feel better if on Mondays I watched Yes, Dear , Becker, Everybody Loves Raymond, and Bette instead of RAW? And if on Thursdays if I tuned into Survivor and Charmed instead of Smackdown.”
Actually you bring up a good point. TV just drives me insane. I’m pretty sure the only show I can stand is the Simpsons. I would feel worse if you turned those shows on. It would mean that you are not only a wrestling fan, but also a sitcom fan. That’s just scary.
BP
Why? Has it been proven?
But lemme guess, your gonna anyway.
OK, so they are on TNT or TNN and young, oh, OK, thats what must mean they have no teeth. And before you look down on this “young kid” realize your probably watching a commercial or the show. Of course they are gonna say good stuff about the characters. Both those characters had books out in the past year also, so it makes sense to market them. Oh, and FYI, there is no wrestling
So because this guy, appearently he grew up during the commercial, likes something you don’t, he must be dumb, and not realize that something that is called Sports Entertainment and makes no freaking attempt to hide the fact that the results are pre-determined is not actual athetic competition.
Who are you, or anyone, to tell me what should be fulfilling for me? That is the type of asshole elitism that pisses people off. You don’t like it, fine, don’t, but that doesn’t mean you should look down on me.
**
[/QUOTE]
When you are a child you don’t want to sit and watch an entire baseball game. You don’t want to go to a concert and listen to a group play for 3 hours. However, you wouldn’t mind going to see a bunch of zany characters jump around and yell at each other for a while. I have no problem with this… as long as the fans accept that it is a “childish” form of entertainment. As I matured, I started looking for better ways to entertain myself. After 5 years of watching guys jump around in their underwear, I was looking for something else. How can people be wrapped up in this for most of their adult lives?**
[/QUOTE]
Well, ADD boy, I was quite able to sit down and watch plays, watch a baseball game, or watch a concert when I was younger. Perhaps, if you couldn’t then you are the unintelligent one.
**
The mental stimulation may not be the same as reading a book on physics, its no less stimulating than watching Friends, Allie McBeal or Monday Night Football. In fact, replace wrestling with football and you can say the same thing about that.
**
Why you find it troublesome, I don’t know, but I can picture the same thing. I disagreed with everything you had to say, but this is hysterical. In fact, I could see Vinnie Mac right now, opening RAW like that. Seriously, anybody who markets a product is looking for ways to push the envelope, and get more people buying or using their product.
Really? That’s interesting, especially considering that TNT hasn’t aired wrestling in several months. I’ve never seen anything like that on TNN either.
See, people have these things called “interests.” They have a whole range of them, for a whole range of different reasons. It’s pretty amazing.
Spoken like someone who doesn’t watch. Trucido repeatedly points out how there is never any subtlety, but I could point to several angles (storylines) in the past filled with subtlety and complexity. If you’re not a regular fan though, you won’t recognize it.* Hell, in some All Japan matches, the match itself often tells a story with many different layers and there’s no external storyline necessary.
But I suppose you’d actually have to watch it to get it.
Steph ordering Test to take HHH’s place in a match on Raw. Test rolled his eyes and mumbled a few words of dissent. Steph admonished him. Only a regular fan would know the history between the two and would understand why this was an outrage for Test (he and Steph were an item long ago until HHH came along) and why he couldn’t say much about it other than grumble (he was in no position to defy the McMahon/Helmsley regime and despite his best efforts had always come up short in looking for a revenge victory over HHH yet now he’s being ordered to take up his slack). A non fan wouldn’t get all that. They would just see a guy upset because he was being told to cover for another guy.
On one Raw, Kane and Undertaker are walking to the ring before their match. Undertaker offers Kane a chew of tobacco. Kane shakes his head “no.” They keep walking. On the surface it doesn’t seem like much, but fans who have been watching for a while know that Kane used to be Dr. Isaac Yankem - a really horrible gimmick of an evil dentist. Complete with (I think) legitimately bad teeth. When he debuted as Kane, the WWF acted like he was a completely different person than Isaac Yankem. He wears a mask, he has a different backstory, etc. But then (years after the dentist gimmick) he turns down the tobacco - wouldn’t any good dentist? In two seconds they managed to give me a knowing laugh that no non-fan would understand.
Like I said, two quick examples. Not too complicated, but enough to show that there is more going on than meets the eye if you’re just channel-surfing. There is shading and deeper storytelling going on. When it’s done well, anyway
Ok, I have a few questions for the wrestling fans. These are sincere questions, and please don’t bash me with anything for asking. Yes, they are coming from an anti-WWF point of view, but they are sincere nonetheless.
Do you think the WWF promotes the idea of actions without consequences? In other words, when I smash someone over the head with a big metal chair, he usually goes to the hospital and I go to jail. Then he talks funny for the rest of his life, has brain damage, and drools, while I spend thousands in court, and end up in prison getting…well, you know…“friendly” with my jailmate.
Are there intelligent characters in the WWF? I.e., is there a Professor kick-my-ass type guy? Does the WWF actively promote mind over body? Is there any intellectual element (aside from clever storylines) to the WWF? (Ok, maybe that was more than one question, but all in the same vein.)
Is the WWF pro-violence? Are muscles more important than brains?
Was Andre the Giant the sweetest guy ever? (answer: yes, from all I have know and read. Damn shame he died so young. See Adventures in the Screen Trade by William Goldman for great anecdotes.)
Leander
I’ll take a stab at these.
Maybe somewhat within the storylines. It’s important to note that they readily and often refer to themselves as a soap opera, and as a show – not as real life. I’m sure your response may be that young children can’t ditinguish the difference, which is a valid point. To which I can only reply that parents should be involved with what their kids are watching and discussing it with them if it is somewhat objectionable, and not watching if they find it very objectionable. Also, they run at least one commercial per show saying that “we are trained professionals, and even we get serious injuries, do NOT try this stuff at home…”
There hasn’t been in a while. There was a character in the 80s called “The Genius” Lanny Poffo. He later (or was it prior to the Genius) was “The Poet” Lanny Poffo. He’d come out and read an insulting poem about his opponent before the match. Both gimmicks were pretty bad.
No. Should they? Does Days of our Lives?
I’d say that since most of the interview segments are not scripted, you can see who is pretty sharp and who is not by the wit they display. Mick Foley and Chris Jericho (A few others as well) come to mind as coming across as pretty intelligent.
They don’t take an “offical” stance on this, it’s all in your interpretation of the show. I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it while watching. As I stated above, they are the first to tell you that the violence is all part of the show. Not real. So, if you want to say that they promote fake violence, then I guess so.
Well, I never met him, but – by all accounts, yes he was.
WHAT?? Are you saying Days isn’t highbrow entert…oh wait, shit…
Point taken. And thanks for your thoughtful replies.
leander