Can WWF Fans Be Educated?

The BBQ Pit
141

I was the one making the “well, Do you view me better if I watch X” argument. So, I’ll assume you’re talking to me.

Lest you think my couch is never un-assed, I direct you back to my post were I listed things that I more enjoy more than the WWF:

· spending time with friends and family
· playing league softball, playing with the dog,
· reading,
· team trivia,
· The Straight Dope,
· Freelance writing and photography (I did not mention this before, but now that you’re getting preachy, I feel compelled to)
· I’m not going to pretend that I didn’t say NFL Sunday, nor do I feel the need to apologize for watching TV on Sunday afternoons.
All in all, I probably watch 12-15 hours of TV a week. Very little, compared to the other things on my list.

Here’s something you may wish to consider – I don’t mind at all and I’m not concerned what you do with your free time, as long as you aren’t harming anyone.

142

True to wrestling form, and right on cue mouthbreather, it’s never over when you think it’s over (much like this thread) threre’s most always action after the bell.

Yeah, I love you Jabroni’s.

143

Well, at this point, I don’t think I’m preaching to you, mouthbreather, as our disagreement is pretty much established. I’ve also stated, multiple times, that you are free to watch wrestling all you want. You’ll be judged, though, by the company you keep and the quality of your entertainment. If someone tells you in all honesty that their absolute favorite movie is Pauly Shore’s Jury Duty, isn’t that going to make you the least bit suspicious of them? Does a person who thinks John Tesh is the pinnacle of musical achievement not give you reason for concern? Of course people are free to choose whatever entertainment they want, but I feel such choices do convey information about that person.

I guess I did miss that ‘not a wrestling viewer’ part of your post, Hibbins. Er, assume that ‘you’ to be a generalized one. I must object, however, to your drawing a line between education and entertainment. Education is not always a conscious process, and it takes place in some form or another with virtually everything we experience. Total detachment from environment is impossible. You’re also assuming that my distaste for professional wrestling is entirely a product of pretension, rather than a true distaste for cheap melodrama. Would you admit at least the possibility that I really think it’s offensively stupid?

144

I thought that the “You can have your “low-brow” or pointless entertainment. Hell, I’ll provide you with some” comment was saying that you would give us some other forms of entertainment instead of wrestling, which seemed preachy. Upon re-reading, that may not have been your meaning. Were you saying that you can be low-brow at times? In any case, if I have misconstrued your statements, I retract the “preachy” comment and apologize.

Now,

Agreed on all counts. But your analogy isn’t working too well for me. Show me where I said “I love the WWF more than any other form of entertainment!” (Hint, you can’t because I didn’t.)

Here’s a question for you, in the same vein. And, IMO, a better analogy than the one you present. Say you are browsing through a new friends CD collection – lets see, several Beatles discs, Radiohead, Zappa, Mingus, Coltrane, John Lee Hooker, Yo Yo Ma, Ella Fitzerald, Dorsey Brothers, Glenn Miller, Husker Du, Led Zepplin, Brahams, Vivaldi, Leonard Cohen, Springsteen, R.E.M., Big Star, Nick Drake, Elvis Costello, etc., etc., etc. and then you come across a John Tesh CD – Are you going to go on a tirade, tell them that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel of entertainment, that they have no taste, etc. (basically, translate what you’ve done here in this thread to music).

Would you do that?

145

You’re right about that analogy, it’s a poor one. I was at a loss for something better, though. In your example, I’d try another tack. I’d mention the CD. If the person laughed, said it was silly and stupid but sometimes the right thing, then I would assume they can handle it and the issue is closed. If the person then immediately begins to accuse me of baseless bias against perfectly good music, and defend Tesh as worthwhile by describing his soulful singing and complex, thoughtful lyrics in excruciating detail, I would think he needed a brick thrown at his head. My reaction in this thread is not my wont. It’s the Pit, after all, and I felt the need to rant.

I also feel the need to come back to one theme that’s probably getting tired. Unlike bad music, professional wrestling has always embodied, to me, the idea of strength and bad attitude prevailing over all. It reminds me of bullies and anti-intellectuals, as well as a tendency to favor a lone protagonist’s victory through violence over cartoonish villainy.

146

That’s kosher with me, but just remember that there are two sides to the coin. Most people are going to react with the level of attitude they are confronted with.

If, IRL, you casually asked me about the WWF, my reaction would be very much like (if not exactly) this: I’d laugh it off and say “yes, I know it’s low-brow and I know most people don’t like it, but sometimes low-brow is what I want”

But, being that this is a message board, and people chose to rant and use names/expressions like hillbilly, stupid, no taste, moronic, HTF can you like this shit, you’re an idiot, you must be a redneck, etc.* Then of course my response is going to be a little more charged than in a casual conversation.

IOW, It’s the Pit, after all, and I felt the need to rant back.

I would. And I can handle it. Can we close this issue?

And yes, the end of your post is getting tired, IMO. If someone else wants to tow the line in that direction, have at it. :slight_smile:

I’m content knowing how Trucido feels about wrestling. And s/he should be content knowing that there are aspects of it that I don’t like (the objectification of women, some of the borderline racial stuff they pull, and yes, some of the excruciatingly bad storylines). But the parts of it that I enjoy (being surprised by a good swerve angle, the humor in some the interviews, the amazement I get from watching two of the really good wrestlers who can really turn it up for a big match) outweighs the bad for me. I can understand how it might not for others, but hey, you know what they say about 31 flavors.

*[sub]I’m not saying YOU said all these things, but these sentiments have been tossed around pretty freely in this thread from a number of people.[/sub]

147

I thought so, Trucido. You have just exposed yourself and exhibited more crass than a whole group of wrestling fans in an arena combined. Is this all you learned from watching Friends or Survivor? You didn’t learn manners? Oh, I forgot, you are above it all. So you were taught but didn’t learn. And you call us wrestling fans idiots?

You have made many post, yet have not provided a single adequate alternative to our “wasting time” watching wrestling. Yet when I pointed out some shortcomings to what you might have offered, you get into a snit. I haven’t insulted you yet, but it seems obvious I don’t need to, for you have insulted yourself much better.

Oh BTW, as if you care, I am college graduate, and I do my own computer programs, thank you.

Now, I ask again, what were you going to educate us fans?

148

I’m crass? You single-handedly chuck entire mediums of expression, declare all opera save Verdi worthless, eliminate every modern play but one (I’m sure you’ve seen and carefully considered them all), sum up politics in a single clause, all this after saying that professional wrestlers must be smart because they’re strong (we can’t criticize them, see, because they have larger muscles than we do) and you have the nerve to call me crass? I’m sorry, but there isn’t a reasonable response to that.

149

Sure there is: Can you get a refund on that tuition?
(ducks & runs)

150

I know the discussion has gotten away from this topic, but I have a quick point concerning the argument that “wrestling isn’t a sport/wrestlers aren’t athletes”. Now I won’t presume to decide for you what makes a sport, hell, I know people who will argue that golf isn’t a sport, but if wrestling isn’t one, then you might want to examine whether things like gymnastics and figure skating qualify(wow, what a run-on sentence). Certainly wrestling is not a sport the way things like football, baseball, boxing, tennis or golf are, there is no quantifiable way to determine a winner. however, to say there is no athletic competition going on is just plain wrong. I may lose non-wrestling fans on this but take the example of Triple H and Billy Gunn. Both have the stereotypical bodybuilder physique, both were given the same basic opportunities by the WWF(they both won King of the Ring, a yearly tournament usually used to boost a wrestler to main event status, both were members of Degeneration X, arguably the most popular stable(faction) in recent wrestling history). One of them(Triple H) has gone on to become one of the top men in the company, while the other(gunn) has done absolutely nothing with his career. Why you ask? Triple H preformed better and thus was given more status and clout. Billy Gunn, on the other hand, made countless mistakes in the ring and never seemed to improve his wrestling or Microphone skills. The point I’m trying to make is that while some wrestlers(eg The Big Show) have even won titles based solely on management decision, for the most part wrestlers these days are successful based on there skill at preforming physical feats. The reason I mentioned gymnastics and figure skating is that like wrestling, every move in these sports is choreographed and rehearsed. The only difference is that we see a number given to represent the judges score in those sports. Success is based on the same principal. I’m not arguing that (pro)wrestling should be considered as the same kind of sport as the mainstream ones. But it certainly is well cemented in a gray area in between.

151

Wow, Trudicio, for a non-wrestling fan, you sure do argue like a wrestler. Gotcha.

152

Key sentence… Triple H was GIVEN more status and clout. There goes your “middle ground”. These guys aren’t athletes… they are physically trained actors. They don’t earn anything, they are given what the management wants them to have.

BP

153

Perm, they were athletes before they enter wrestling. You find that a lot of them, including The Rock, Chris Jericho and Steve Austin, were former football players, particularly linemen. They would be used to constant high-impact collisions. And, contrary to popular opinion, the offensive and defensive limemen are often the smartest players on the field.

Some of them have amateur wrestling or extensive martial arts background, such as Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, or Rob Van Dam. And others have excellent reputation of being real good streetfighters or boxers, such as Roddy Piper and the Nasty Boys. And some like the luchadores, are great acrobats. A non-athletic person would be killed in a minute against these men and women. Only the tremendous leg strength and conditioning of Muhammed Ali, for example, allowed him to withstand the constant leg attack from Antonio Inoki in that fiasco in Tokyo a few years back.

154

Thank you 5-H5 for giving me another good argument for wrestling (choreographed and rehearsed just like ice skating and gymnastics). And to add to that, we all know that wrestling is fixed. But what most people dont know is that, othere than the “high spots”(the special moves and run-ins), most matches are far from choreographed and rehearsed. When these guys “learn” to wrestle, they learn how to put on a match. They all learn the generic moves and a few “signiture” moves. When the Hardys and the Dudleys get in the ring, they may have an idea as to how the match is going to flow, who is going to win and what “high spots” need to be pulled off. They DO NOT go over every irish whip into the turnbuckle. My guess is that 80% of your typical match is ad libed in ring by the wrestlers (at least at the highest level of wrestling).

What amazes me often is the fact that they can take one hell of a “bump” (a move that really does hurt) and still be able to remember where there at and what they are doing.

I know none of that added anything to the thread, but who cares. All rasslin fans are inbred hicks that dropped out of the 2nd grade. We dont know no better. Wait, thats not your argument. Your argument is that we should all find something better to watch. No, wait, thats not it either. It’s that people will think poorly of us becuase we watch bad television. Yeah, thats it, I think.
dead0man

155

Another key word… BEFORE they entered wrestling. They decided to give up the world of dynamic competition and succumb to the will of the WWF upper management.

Just like 5-HT said… they were given their status. Just because they used to be athletes, doesn’t mean that they still are.

BP

156

maybe the message 2 posts above should be something like…

“they have been athletes since before they became wrestlers”

does that make more sense?

157

Like the way figure skaters are “given” whatever scores the judges want to give them?

158

Thank you sacriligeum. My use of the word “given” only changes the meaning if the wrestlers are “given” there position regardless of their perfomance. If giving someone a reward for how well they perform invalidates a sport, than I guess any sport with a governing body is really just sports entertainment

159

wrong. If you arent able to entertain, provide high workrate, and show the ability to follow orders, you get dropped.

See: The Big Show, Mark Henry, Buff Bagwell, Road Dogg, Shawn Michaels, Diesel, the Kat, Brian Christopher, HHH…
I could go on. All these wrestlers were punished for poor work rate, bad attitudes, or various misdemeanours.

If you work hard, follow orders, and entertain you get “pushed”, or promoted.

160

I have nothing else to add…