Can WWF Fans Be Educated?

The BBQ Pit
161

Just a point of nitpicking: it is generally agreed that the match was a work (pre-determined outcome), and that it turned out to be so boring because neither of these guys wanted to do the job (lose) to the other guy.

However, any wrestler who’s taken a Vader Bomb will tell you that it’s not something that ordinary people would be able to take without being crippled. There’s no room for error. The guy throws you down so hard, that you damn well better know how to land properly, or you’re screwed.

On a side-note, vaguely relevant to the current discussion, Dwayne Johnson (The Rock) appeared on Off The Record, a show on Canadian TV station TSN. The host of the show referred to Johnson’s run with the CFL prior to his run as a pro-wrestler. He then asked him which was more difficult: playing pro-football, or working in pro-wrestling. The Rock answered (not his EXACT words, but a reasonable fac-simile) “Well, if I go by how sore and tired I feel after a night’s work, then pro wrestling is definitely much harder than pro-football. When I play football, I have all sorts of protective gear. When I wrestle, that’s my body hitting the ringpost, or being slammed on the metal ramp.”

Mick Foley said “if we consider figure-skating a sport, then wrestling is a sport as well.” He was quite right. Similarly, Verne Gagne pointed out that “maybe we ought to have judges holding scorecards around the ring. Then, people would see it as a sport.”

These men are athletes. It’s not like just anyone can walk into a ring and perform to their level. And there’s a tremendous danger factor involved. There have been numerous crippling injuries, and even fatalities in the sport. And of course, there have been other non-crippling, but definitely painful injuries. Much like in football or hockey, pro-wrestlers often return to the ring when they’re still injured, thereby aggravating their injuries. However, unlike other sports, when a wrestler gets injured, the match isn’t stopped (very few exceptions aside - including of course fatalities). That’s why Mick Foley continued to wrestle after having fallen from the top of a 25 foot cage twice, and having suffered a concussion, dislocated shoulder, broken ribs, a bruised kidney, and having had a tooth knocked out (possibly through his nose - but he couldn’t confirm that part, since he doesn’t remember anything after the second fall from the top of the cage). That’s also why Steve Austin wrestled for months after having suffered a neck injury that left him nearly paralized, and which subsequently required major surgery. Bret Hart continued a match with Dino Bravo, albeit for a short time, after his breast-plate had been broken due to a bad landing onto the railguards that separated the fans from the ring area.

There is an old quote in the wrestling world that says “for those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no explanation will do.”

Well, since it’s fair to say that in this day and age, nobody “believes” anymore, allow me to adapt the thread to our present time. I think it’s quite fitting in this thread: “For those who enjoy wrestling, no explanation is necessary. For those who don’t enjoy it, no explanation will do.”

162

Okay, so wrestling is hard. It requires great physical exertion. This does not make it a sport, nor its participants athletes. Figure skaters are judged on their performance, according to an exacting and well-laid out set of rules. They win or lose based on those rules. Wrestling is scripted. They are essentially playing parts. Yes, it’s improvisation. Yes, if they play their part well, they will be successful. But then you have to consider stuntmen athletes too.

When they get into the ring, choreographed or not, all the wrestlers are cooperating. They have something to accomplish, and will work together to accomplish it. When an athlete steps up, they are opposed. They must do better than others, not merely meet the requirements. Others in the game actively attempt to thwart them. If this was the case in professional wrestling, I think the matches would most likely end in death or dismemberment. (If you actually jump onto someone from a turnbuckle , you’re going to incapacitate them no matter who they are). Not that they lack physical strength, but that their moves are so over-the-top. You can compare wrestlers to acrobats, you can compare them to stuntmen, but they are not athletes, because they do not compete, they cooperate.

5-HT, for the longest time, I thought your username was leetspeak, but I figured it out yesterday. I just thought it was pretty cool.

Capacitor: Got me what? A present? I like presents!

163

Well, if you guys want to make up your own defintion of the word “athlete,” it’s pointless to argue.

From Dictionary.com:

ath·lete (thlt)
n.
A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

From Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998:

athlete \Ath"lete, n. [L. athleta, Gr. ? prizefighter, fr. ? to contend for a prize, ?, Hom. ?, contest, ? prize; fr. the same root as E. wed: cf. F. athl[`e]te.] 1. (Antiq.) One who contended for a prize in the public games of ancient Greece or Rome.

  1. Any one trained to contend in exercises requiring great physical agility and strength; one who has great activity and strength; a champion.

  2. One fitted for, or skilled in, intellectual contests; as, athletes of debate.

164

From dictionary.com:

Is Pro-wrestling an “activity involving physical exertion and skill…” Absolutely.

Is it competitive? NO.

If the outcome is predetermined, then the “athletes” are not striving against anything, but merely playing a role in a theatrical production. When Hamlet fights on stage, he ain’t competing against anything.

Is wrestling a sport? According to the definition, yes. Is it a competitive sport (like figure skating or gymnastics)? NO.

165

They themselves stopped referring to themselves as a “sport” almost a decade ago. They have been calling themselves “Sports Entertainment”.
I’m under the impression that change may have stemmed from the following. There was a serious injury to Jerry Sags (one of “The Nasty Boys”, a pretty boring and not very entertaining tag team, IMO) in Florida in the early 1990s. He took a bad chairshot from Scott Hall and it caused some serious spinal injures, and it ended his career.

Sags tried to sue WCW and Scott Hall …

Here’s a related editorial, if anyone is interested (it’s where I lifted the above quote):

SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT OR ENTERTAINING SPORT?

(it’s the middle block of text, with the purple backgroud.) Now, I’m not saying that his piece is entirely logically sound, but it is related to this discussion and some of it is interesting.

166

gooti - interesting stuff. But my post was primarily directed at Sacrilegium (re: definition of “athletes”) and those who compared wrestling to gymnastics, figure skating, etc.

BTW, my friend often compares wrestling to Jerry Springer - stupid, lowbrow, and ridiculously entertaining. I never did “get” wrestling (even as a kid), but boy did I enjoy Springer on occasion. But then, of course, I grew out of it (lie).

:slight_smile: Leander

167

Sheesh. the above “gooti” post is mine. I really need to check to see who is logged in before I submit, sorry about that.

168

Oh, it was? Hmmm. How does it correlate to anything I’ve said? I don’t think I ever called it a sport, at least not in the traditional sense. Whenever people ask me what sports I like, if I mention wrestling I always tag on “but that’s not really a sport.” I think most wrestlers are athletes (let’s forget David Arquette’s stint as WCW Champion for a moment), but an athlete doesn’t necessarily participate in sports.

It is competitive. Not in a traditional sporting sense as in “these two men are competing right now toward an outcome that will be determined today,” but more in the sense that any two employees in any company are vying for a higher position. I don’t think it’s a “real” sport any more than two salesmen competing for the lion’s share of the sales in their store is a sport; however, it is a physical competition on some levels. It’s competitive, just not in the way that traditional physical contests are. If it were the same as all of the others, there would be no need in discussing it :slight_smile:

169

How in the Hell are “two employees in any company” competing if they already know who got the higher position?

Your argument on this point is very weak - see my previous post.

170

Where do you get this idea that they already know who gets the higher position? They do not already know who has the higher position because it has not happened yet. They don’t know whose career will take off in six months. They work hard now so that, in time, their place on the roster will improve. Just like two employees in any company who are wanting to climb that ladder do. Unless they’re calling Miss Cleo, they don’t know who will get the higher position.

Kurt Angle did much better than even the most optimistic people predicted. As a result, management saw fit to elevate him more and more. The more they challenged him with, the more his performance pleased everyone. The higher up the ladder he got pushed, the more he showed that he deserved it by continuing to improve. Hence, his work paid off and he eventually became WWF champion.

“Big Show” Paul Wight came in with the company having very high hopes for him. He was pushed hard due to his size and previous reputation with the fans. He constantly performed poorer than expected in almost every facet of the business, so his place on the roster decreased over time to the point where he was taken off of the shows and sent to Ohio Valley Wrestling to hone his skills with a bunch of rookies. His lack of hard work got him pushed down the ladder.

For each person that flops in their push, another ten are waiting in the wings to take his place. If one of your co-workers is out there putting on better matches than you are and impressing everyone more than you, you need to bring your own skills and performance up to par to keep him from taking your place.

They don’t already know who will have the higher position on the roster down the road. They know who has it at this very moment, but they are competing to raise their standing in the company before those around them overtake them.

You mean your previous post that I said I more or less agreed with? Where do we disagree here?

171

Are you saying that they are competing to be better showmen? To be more popular with the crowd and thus rise the ranks of the WWF?

If that’s your argument, then I guess it makes sense, though that seems to infer that wrestlers are simply performers. Since the outcome is predetermined and the fight choreographed, the only competition is who can “pretend” better? Sounds a lot like acting to me.

If that’s your point, then I concur. But I wouldn’t compare wrestling to sports, then. Sounds more like the circus, no?

172

In a nutshell, yes.

Bingo. A more physical style of acting where athleticism plays a larger role than in others; a blend of the two, if you will.

The circus makes a good comparison. In fact, pro wrestling got its start on the carnie circuit back when it was still “real.” But that’s a whole other story…

173

Hey, we agree! Wow. It’s nice to have a clean debate about wrestl…

[takes a big steel chair and swings it…]

:slight_smile:

(seriously, though - nice chattin’ with ya.)

Leander

174

Slight correction of myself: It’s not just the pretending - it’s having the physical ability to compete in the grueling bouts, being able to protect your opponent, being able to adapt and work with those who have different styles, etc. You have to have the physical tools. And yes, backstage politics, charisma and mic skills all play a part too.

175

hehe

You too.

176

Trudi, my present for you is…nah I won’t go there.

I have a question: If the wrestlers aren’t athletes, then why do many of them take extensive time in the gym working out? Rob Van Dam developed his split-legged one-hand lift that he is so fond of doing (I’m sure that elite women have done that technique before him, but that’s another subject), and got this method of lifting sanctioned by the weightlifting federation.

That leads to another topic: medical treatment, legal and illegal. Wrestlers have more than their share of bodyaches and pain due to strained muscles, torn ligaments and broken bones, either from working out or the bumps performed in the ring. They are among the pain reliever pharmaceutical’s biggest customers. They also spend extensive time in hospital. Unfortunately, the wrestlers have a very hard time obtaining medical insurance. So you get famous quotes in wrestling such as Steve Williams (the Oklahomian, not Steve Austin) saying, while getting treated for a major gash on his temple, “Doctor sew me up; I got a match tonight.” Roddy Piper tried to get a universal insurance for wrestlers, but it didn’t come to pass.

Others want to enhance performance and their looks. In this fierce competition to be more recognized, many don’t take Kurt Angle’s approach. In the search for shortcuts, many at times use mega protein supplements (that imbalances their nutrition), fat burners with potentially harmful side-effects and steroids. There is some testing, but there have been reports of ways to get around it. Tragically, many wrestlers for the love of the game, succumbed to the allure of feeling no more pain and the temporary boost drugs can give a wrestler. When the side-effects emerge, and they will emerge, it hits hard.

177

Ok, I think the consensus here is that wrestling is not a competitive sport (no shit), but what does that have to do with the OP?

Sorry to go back to the original topic, but since it has already been established that most of the WWF fans are teenage males, and the question is if they can be educated–then aren’t most of them already being “educated”? Doesn’t the fact that most of the viewers are teenagers say something about the WWF’s ability to keep the same people watching over a period of a few years, and thus show that many do become “transform[ed]…into lovers of learning and passionate pursuers of knowledge”? Or at least, that they stop watching lowbrow entertainment such as wrestling?

178

Or that they pursue knowledge and watch wrestling.

179

Capacitor, what the fuck is your major malfunction? Do you just not read anything I say? Feel free to conduct your response however you want, because it apparently is only tenuously linked to the discussion at hand. Say it with me.

Physical ability does not make someone an athlete. Competing at a sport does make someone an athlete.

Read those a couple of times and think them over. Just becuase they injure themselves doesn’t make them athletes. Just because they train hard doesn’t make them athletes. Just because they pretend to hit each other doesn’t make them athletes. When they can get up into the ring and have an honest contest of phsyical skill, then you can consider them athletes, and not the poor actors they are.

180

Or that, true. But notice the keyword “most” which is the topic of discussion. Since, apparently, anyone who believes in the wrestling stereotype does not care about the exceptions.