Today’s hypo based on actual events, only some of which I can attest to personally.
So I know a guay whom I’ll call Richard, partly because that is nowhere near his real name but mostly because it abbreviates to Dick. Richard is a young professional–I’d stimate mid-30s–and has a reputation for being succcessful with the ladies. I myself can’t see it, but as my actual wife says he is very good looking and my work wide says he’s quite charming I viw ti their superior judgment.
Recently, at an event we both attended, Richard spent quite a bit of time with a young woman I’ll call Donna. Donna was comely but somewhat…vexsome. She expressed a number of opinions both stupid and bigoted at this event. Richard and Donna came to the party separately but left together, and as she was seen leaving his hotel room in the wee hours of the morning, one may reasonably conclude that fornication ensued.
A day or two later, back at work, I was having lunch with a couple of colleagues when Richard entered the establishment. One colleague invited him over. as men will do we spoke about the interaction with Donna, about whch Richard shared few details beyond hte obvious. Someone commented that it was difficult to imagine having sex with Donna, despite the aforehinted rocking bod, because of hte ignorant, hateful bile she had spewed about non-Christian, non-white persons. Richard agreed with the negative assessment of Donna’s character, relating several even more offenstive things she had said which the rest of us hadn’t heard. Donna was, he said, entirely repulsive in character; words rhyming with witch, bassist, hunt, cupid, and elf-clothing were the best descriptiors of her, he said. But for a casual hookup that didn’t matter–just that she was willing, beautiful, and limber.
Does Richard’s willngness to sleep with a woman he clearly despised make you think less of him? What abou the post-coital smack talk?
No. Willing adult with willing adult. I don’t think I would have taken her home, but I don’t think less of him because he did.
Classless, I think less of him for this. If someone is nice enough to get naked with you, the least you can do is stay quiet if you can’t say anything nice.
That being said, while I completely despise Eva Marie from WWE, I wouldn’t turn her down if she hopped in my bed. I’d wonder what the hell was wrong with her personally to be interested in ME, and I’d be asking if it was a case of mistaken identity or if she’d gone off the rails… But I’d probably open that line of inquiry a bit later.
On the other hand, I couldn’t bring myself to fuck Jenny McCarthy because she is so utterly reprehensible.
I think there are two separate issues/questions here:
Can you respect a man who has sex as a purely recreational activity (provided he does so in a safe and aboveboard manner)? and
Can you respect a man who engages in recreational activities (whether they’re going bowling or going fishing or playing video games or having sex) with people he has contempt for?
My answer to both questions is that it might diminish my respect for the man at least a little, but it wouldn’t eliminate it if I still had other reasons to respect him.
He’s a despicable person both for the boinking and the talking. Clearly, he has no respect for women. Reversing the original hypothetical a bit and asking me if I’d sleep with Richard? HELL, NO. I think I’m the only woman who’s responded. I wonder what other women’s responses will be as it seems to be a gender thing so far.
I think TB makes a good point here. What if Richard hadn’t had sex with Donna but went dancing with her instead and still bad-mouthed her afterwards? I suppose I can understand (excuse?) the willingness to participate in a joint activity with someone you dislike because you lack any other available partner. What would make me lose respect is the bad-mouthing afterwards. As someone said upthread, if someone is willing to get naked with you (or let you trod on their toes while dancing the East Coast Swing), the least you could do is keep your mouth shut if you have nothing nice to say about them.
The whole sex thing doesn’t bother me at all, about either of them. People are quite free to enjoy their own recreational activities.
So, that leaves the conversation after the fact between the guys. Not only is it in extremely bad taste to bad mouth someone you had sex with, it’s in extremely bad taste to discuss it at all!
I would have just smirked and said “it’s none of your business.”
FWIW, as a man, I agree. The “self-loathing” bit suggests a bit of active exploitation, like he was PUAing her into the hookup. But there’s nothing admirable in his conduct in any case.
I’m no proponent of casual sex, so this particular example wouldn’t lower my opinion of him any further. If you’re the type of person who wants a purely physical encounter, then I don’t see how a person’s opinions should make much difference.
Because it’s just nicer to spend time with people you can like and respect. If you’re looking for a tennis match, or a chess game, it is similarly happier and healthier to find it with someone you do not loathe, and vice-versa.
To be fair: What Dick said on the subject was brief In response to a question that went something like “You gonna call her?” he replied, “No, she’s a racist who only slept with me because I’m black,” and quoted some of Donna’s more outrageous opinions. when pressed. He may have gone into further detail once I left, but not liking him in the first place, I departed as soon as I was done eating.
I guess it depends on why he hooked up with her. There are some guys who seem to view hooking up as proof of masculinity, and as using women instead of a mutually fun experience for both people. More prevalent in younger frat bro type guys, but also in some older guys. If that’s why Richard hooked up with Donna, in order to “conquer” her or something like that, and be able to have more specific ways to talk about how terrible she is, then I would think less of him. But it really was just because she was the hottest available woman, and he’s able to respect her as a human being even if he’s not able to respect her loathsome views, then I wouldn’t think less of him for hooking up with her. I would think a bit less of him for talking about it and smack talking her, but not for the hook up.
I understand that we’d rather spend time with people we like and respect, but it’s not like a one-night stand involves spending much time together. Tennis and chess are perfectly good examples. It’s one thing if you have a regular chess partner and you guys play every weekend for years, and something entirely different if you’re at a chess competition playing several matches against strangers that you’ll never see again. You don’t sit down and say “Hold on, I’ll need to get your opinions on certain key subjects before I can enjoy playing chess with you.”
I’d say it depends on how they hooked up. Did they both see this as a purely sexual affair? If so, then they both knew what was going on and had no expectations beyond what happened.
What would be wrong would be if Richard (or Donna) was deceitful during the hookup. Did Richard pretend at the time that he agreed with Donna’s opinions in order to get her in bed? Did he pretend he had an interest in her that went beyond sex? If so, then what he did was wrong.
