im emotionally exhausted with my 25 year-old daughter blaming every disappointment in her life on THE DIVORCE which happened 13 years ago… and not sure her close “friendship” with her therapist (now, for 13 yrs) is helping her or hurting her… if my daughter didn’t pass her exam, I’m to blame; if her bf leaves her, i’m to blame; if my daughter loses her job, i’m to blame… come on, already! Isn’t there a point in time, when each of us has to take ownership of our OWN life disappointments, mistakes???
My parents were no piece of cake by any stretch of the imagination, but that never ever prevented me from pulling myself out of an environment of low expectations, to putting myself through college and taking responsibility for the direction of my life, living with my choices, my mistakes, etc… I fear my daughter has been overly indulged in hoity-toity northshore basement psycho babble, but if I even infer that she should consider a different therapist, or stop drowning herself in the past, she’ll barrel out the door and out of my life, again… so now what?
Maybe you need to tell her certain things. If she chooses to walk out of your life, that’s her choice. Not a happy one perhaps, but perhaps healthier for you.
But don’t tell her what she should do or how she should feel. Tell her how you feel when she says or does certain things. Don’t be judgemental, just let her know how her actions affect you. And don’t tell her “You make me feel …” but rather “When you say or do this, I feel …”.
Or you can let it go and not engage her in these discussions. “I’m sorry you feel that way, but I’m not going to get into that” is an ok reply to her, too.
So you have to figure out what you need to do for yourself. Not to fix her, or preserve the relationship, but for you to be healthy. You might need some help figuring that out, and that might involve counseling too.
That’s my two cents, and take what you can use and leave the rest.
Perhaps she feels intimidated by your achievements and personal resolve? It sounds to me like she’s trying to find something to pin the blame on for not measuring up, and the question is what she’s trying to compare herself to.
I have met with her therapist, with my daughter a few times, but nothing seemed to change my daughter’s emotional health. And my feelings were expressed, but clearly my daughter’s feelings were more important during those sessions as I was adjusting to life changes, but daughter wasn’t.
When my daughter gets like this, she doesn’t allow me to speak without interjecting sarcasm, and when I ask her to allow me to speak, she gets angrier and either hangs up the phone, or jets out the front door.
My daughter is never interested in how she makes others feel… she’s gotten a tiny bit better in that area, but for the most part, the focus needs to be on her perceptions, her feelings.
QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]… Or you can let it go and not engage her in these discussions. “I’m sorry you feel that way, but I’m not going to get into that” is an ok reply to her, too.
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the last time I did that, she didn’t return calls or see me for 2 1/2 years… that’s happened twice in the past, I really don’t want that outcome again, but don’t want to indulge in this dead-end cycle with her anymore either.
My daughter did not and does not take the divorce out on my ex… that was always a huge factor, in my mind, behind my daughter’s tendency to use me as her dumping ground for not only her failings, but my ex’s shortfalls too. When I realized my ex wasn’t going to work with me at any attempts to make the divorce process (and afterwards) as easy on my daughter as possible, I resigned myself to the fact that my daughter would blame me, hate me… but I always hoped she’d mature, heal and move forward.
Now, my ex, as recently as several wks ago, feels great remorse for allowing my daughter’s feelings to exacerbate for so long, but at this point, doesnt know how to change things… her convictions now are rock solid. I just want to move forward, I want to salvage my relationship with my daughter, I can put the past behind me, why can’t she do the same?
I agree 100%, however, she has become close friends with her therapist and any slant, particular from me, about her therapist would not be tolerated by my daughter, at all.
Yes. It may be in your best interests to curtail your emotional involvement with your daughter, and go your own way.
One of my sisters, at age 47, is still this way towards our parents. They have had (with difficulty) to learn to limit their emotions towards her. You cannot allow this to continue to affect you for another 20-odd years, or you will show bad effects from it. Your daughter is grown, she has made her own choices, and it is time for you to stop wondering what you can do for her, and instead wonder what you can do for you.
I’ve dealt with these people and it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t, as you’ve amply found out.
On one hand, if you address “her feelings,” it may not solve the problem, and indeed I suspect you will begin to suspect that the only remaining problem is her attentive, obsessive, scrupulous attention to the least little scintilla of a disturbance in her feelings. And that is the beginning and the end of the analysis.
People like this cannot even rightly be accused of ignoring your views or feelings. They just never get to them. In fact, they suspect feelings other than theirs aren’t even real. It’s a mild or not so mild form of sociopathy (the belief that my slightest whim or twinge is of greater moment than your deepest desire, because I am feeling it, now).
Therapy of course encourages this kind of solipsism because the subject’s feelings are the be-all end-all of the session (not surprisingly, this is why people stay “in therapy” for so long – it encourages the notion that their feelings are worth endlessly obsessing over, scab-picking, re-examining, ad infinitum).
“The unexamined life is not worth living.” True. But the overly-examined life is not worth living (at least for your friends and family). Think Philip Dick, who wrote millions of words tearing apart his feelings about, and his feelings about his feelings about, and his feelings about those, regarding what seems in retrospect like some pretty mundane youtful foibles and midlife crises and hallucinogenic 60s drugs trips (as he himself wrote in a lucid and terse interval that could have taken the place of thousands of pages of his journals: “Took drugs. Saw God. BFD.”).
Religion can encourage self-centeredness, interestingly, too (not shocking, I guess, as psychology is kind of a new religion). Lots of religions speak of “contemplation” and “discernment” and “meditation.” For an Ignatius or Scupoli or the like, I suspect these exercises may indeed have been vehicles to self-improvement or insight or discipline. In the hands of the shallow or self-centered, I think they become an invitation to navel-gazing, looking for reasons to feel slighted, and extreme selfishness (to that solipsistic extreme I mentioned before).
I wish I had a recommendation for how to break through this. As you’ve found, indulging it, or trying to engage it (which often ends up with you being a punching bag or abject apologist for things you did or did not do) does not lead to resolution – it leads to a Groundhog Day repetition of the same or variants on the same grievances.
Saying: “Look, I’d love to talk to you, but we’ve said all we’re ever going to say that’s worthwhile on this topic, I’d love to discuss another, but not this one” – it’s tough love and not guaranteed to work, as you note – sometimes it drives them off into silent self-pity (or, to be cynical, to find a new victim who won’t lay down the law this way).
As frustrating as this situation is, you really don’t have an “easy” or comparatively easy escape valve because, well, she’s your daughter. Telling a S.O. (or even, these days, a spouse), “I love you, but this crap is unworthy of you and I can’t waste our time on it any more” is slightly more viable (given the chance of long-term estrangement, which always sucks) than saying it to the fruit of your loins, because no one of any worth will willingly drive their kid away (BTW, don’t think she’s not counting on that fear as one of the reasons she can make you a punching bag, but you knew that).
My understand of what you have said is that your daughter is using the divorce as a way of avoiding personal responsibility for her own actions and emotional problems. This is really hard for you, because her [internal] anger is re-directed towards you and I’d imagine you swing between feeling so frustrated and angry at her, to feeling guilty for what has happened.
I think you need to set some really clear boundaries with her in terms of what you will and won’t tolerate. I’m thinking of your mental health, not hers. Don’t let her treat you like a doormat, you have the right to be treated with courtesy and respect just like anyone else.
“When my daughter gets like this, she doesn’t allow me to speak without interjecting sarcasm, and when I ask her to allow me to speak, she gets angrier and either hangs up the phone, or jets out the front door.”
The way you worded that made me wonder if you are trying to address this issue with her when she is already in an agitated state (“when my daughter gets like this”)?.
Would it be possible to find a time when she is calm to approach the subject (and definately in person, not over the telephone as you both need to be able to read body language when you’re having this type of conversation)?
Something along the lines of “Daughter, I’d like to talk to you about something that is bothering me, do you have some time available now?” and if she says yes, say “Great. I really need to feel heard, so would you let me say what I need to say, on the understanding that I will then let you say what you need to say?”
And if she can’t let you do that, then don’t have the conversation. If it starts well and then she starts interjecting, end the conversation. Politely and without emotion, but make it clear that you’re not willing to have a conversation with her unless it’s conducted in a civil and adult mannger.
I wish you all the best, she sounds like a very troubled woman and it must be hard for you to see her like this.
I don’t know enough about the professional ethics of therapists or whether they vary based on the sort of therapist it is, but if a therapist and a patient are “close friends” isn’t it, if not unethical, a little bizarre for the therapist to continue treating the patient? And continue to charge for it? It sounds more like the two of them are getting together for weekly hang-out sessions as opposed to therapy. Is there a treatment plan of any kind? Are there goals that the therapist is helping your daughter work toward? Has there been any documented progress? Not that the therapist should be telling you any of this without your daughter’s permission, but still, is she actually doing anything?
I hope that you’re not paying for this, or if you are that you stop, like, now.
Some people find it easier to be a victim than it would be to stand up and take responsibility.
Things like
I dropped out of college cause you got a divorce
I lost my job today cause you got a divorce
I can’t find a boyfriend cause got a divorce.
Lather rinse repeat. Wah, Wah, Wah. Pity me I am a victim. It’s not my fault. Needless to say this is a :wally y attitude.
She needs to understand that no matter what she may want you don’t have a way back machine, and you cannot go back and somehow prevent the divorce. It’s over, it’s done. It can’t be undone. Deal with it. So her choices are to realize that she does have control of her life, and some things are her fault, not yours, Or she can continue to blame you, but she will have to do that all by herself, because you are done with her whining. Tell her the choices are:
1 Take responsibility for your own life.
2 If you are going to continue to act like a spoiled 7 year you are not interested.
3 At least bring some cheese to go with that whine.
It is unethical to form any kind of relationship than doctor/patient. Friends have arguments and the friendships fade. A patient needs to be able to depend on the professional stability of the relationship. The therapist sounds like bad news.
I disagree with Otto about the length of therapy. It depends on the purpose. I see my therapist every six weeks now for one thirty minute session. I will continue to do that as long as I’m on medication and that will probably be for the rest of my life. (I have low grade chronic depression.)
Those thirty minutes are a powerhouse though and they have made a world of difference to me in the seventeen years that I’ve been with this one therapist. I was a very angry, anxious and dependent person when my physician asked him to see me.
pace, there is a really good book on setting boundaries. I’m sorry that I can’t tell you the name of it, but if you look for “setting boundaries” at Amazon, I feel certain that you could find it. I had to use it with my mother. It helped me to create healthy boundaries that were fair to both of us. (Your daughter won’t always like it.)
Have you ever read about “assertiveness techniques”? They were very helpful to me in situations similar to yours. Try googling that phrase.
In my family my brother (who’s in his mid 40s) was harboring a resentment against my mother for a long time about her alcoholism (though at the time she’d been sober for 20 years) and her relaxed/permissive parenting style. After about the umpteenth time he ragged her about how bad a mother she was way back then she told him he needed to “get over it”. He didn’t speak to her for 3 years. His 4 children didn’t see their grandmother for 3 years. He also stopped attending family functions or accepting invitations from me or his other siblings so if I wanted to visit him I had to arrange to go to his place.
Finally, after 3 years, he and my mother started exchanging e-mails. Turns out all he wanted from her was an apology. She apologized because she wanted to heal the relationship. Since then they see each other now and then and he comes to family gatherings and she gets to see the grandchildren.
In reading your story about your daughter it sounds much the same as my brother. Blaming his entire life and everything he’s not happy with on my mother’s parenting (or lack thereof) and drinking like your daughter is blaming everything on the divorce.
Maybe the answer here is to ask her, honestly, what she’d like you to do about it? Maybe she just wants you to listen and agree with her.
And one last thing that I learned about from a little book called The Four Agreements is “don’t take anything personally”. It’s not about you, it’s about her and all the layers of stuff that brought her to where she is now.
So what if she blames everything on you or on the divorce. While those things might be hurtful you can accept them for what they are, her reality, not yours. You can approach her with compassion and understanding while knowing that you aren’t to blame. You don’t really need her approval for what you did or what you’re doing.
And when it gets really tiresome listening to her go on and on and on again about how fucked up her life is because of you or the divorce or whatever you can switch into mirroring mode and just repeat what she says slightly paraphrased. If you can learn to really listen to her words and just parrot them back to her you can remove yourself emotionally from the conversation and not get sucked into another pissing contest.
