Unbelievable, earlier tonight before the episode aired, I was talking to someone about how weak and feeble Scudder appeared to be and wondering how the avatar of darkness could’ve just lost his powers and tonight we finally see them on display…and then Brother Justin chops Scudder’s head off.
After a first season in which very little happened, season two is really speeding to the finish line. I’ve enjoyed every episode, but the last four episodes have been amazing. Management’s dead, Scudder’s dead and now both Ben and Justin are prophets.
What did Lodz mean when he told Lila that he was coming back “in the flesh”? And at this point in the story, why bring Lodz back?
I’ve read in a few places that there will be a third and final season of Carnivàle, but considering how quickly the story has advanced this season (Ben arrived in New Canaan tonight), how will the story be stretched into a third season without a colossal plot twist and without cheating the audience?
And I sure do enjoy that great snake-girl on bearded-girl action!
I didn’t think Justin was Sophie’s Dad, then last night we see the rape scene apparently in the apartment in St. Paul, AND Iris talking about how she and Justin loved St. Paul.
My head is going to explode before the season ends, I just know it.
Yes. We knew before that Sophie’s mom was raped (and presumably rendered comatose ala the maids) by “the tree tattooed man”. Justin just got the tattoo this season and subsequently had it burned into his skin but it was always a part of his “avatar-ness” (remember all the flashbacks and the painting in the Templar Hall). Not exactly a bombshell for us, but certainly one for Iris who perhaps had blocked out that memory until just now. I wonder if she really witnessed the rape as shown or just knows that Justin raped a gyspy woman.
Nice to see Lodz back…it’ll be interesting to see where this storyline leads. I was also surprised (and relieved) to see Jonesy survive the episode. I figured for sure that he’d be sacrificed in a confrontation with Stroud. It was a bit of tease to fast-forward Stroud to New Canaan so fast.
And how 'bout that rag top…faster than I figured. It took me two days to get from Cheyenne to the Bay Area of California in '97 on I-80. Stroud did it in 24 hours (apparently) and on two lane roads.
I probably wasn’t paying much attention, but I thought Lodz was kind of vague, and I inferred that Lila was going to die soon, not that Lodz was coming back. Who knows…
My roomate and I were discussing last week what a shame it was that it didn’t look like we’d be seeing any of more professor Lodz. Needless to say, that opening scene was great.
This episode wasn’t as good though (as the last couple) imo…
Scudder wigging out was pretty great though.
I did get the impression that Lodz will be back “in person” before the end.
Actually, the writer of this one, Tracy Torme, was on a chat last night and said how much he regretted had to be cut, including the rest of the Lodz storyline. It was never even shot, but it does explain Lodz’ line abut coming back.
After Lodz hooks up with Lila, a charlatan came by with a van trying to sell exhibits to the carnival–a Feejee Mermaid, the mummy of John Wilkes Booth (there really was a fake one going around at the time)–and another ‘mummy’. Lodz’ actual corpse, which the guy had found in the ditch. Lila went batshit, of course, and insisted on a decent funeral for him. And apparently she asked/ordered Samson to give the eulogy. I would have paid iron money to see that.
So, that line referred to the dropped storyline. A shame.
The people over at TWOP are buzzing about whether Justin’s rape of Appy in the past fit the conflicted man we saw in s1. I’m in the school that thinks it was some sort of Avatar rage coming over him, not just the power-play rape for no reason like most are. If he had this inexplicable evil in his past (the neck-snap was to save himself and his sister, after all) he would have started down the road of darkness with much more consciousness than he seemed to. But what do I know with this show.
I have a hard time believing that Justin was the rapist because of how he struggled against his true nature (even begging Norman to kill him in the church after their joint flashback showed that Norman had no sins to hide), but maybe he had a history of “evil avatar blackouts” during which he did horrible things?
I don’t think Stroud knew Justin was in the car, otherwise he wouldn’t have fired his gun. Justin probably didn’t go into the building because if he somehow knew that Scudder had freed himself from the straightjacket (and I think he intuitively did), then he figured Scudder would likely take the car to get away faster. He probably figured that prince vs prophet, he would have a better chance of killing Scudder if he could sneak up on him. As for why didn’t Stroud (or Scudder) know that Justin was in the car, they didn’t know that he was thinking ahead of them and even though Justin is a big man, it was very dark, so it really wasn’t difficult at all for him to hide in the back seat.
Do you guys think Iris is sincere about killing Justin or is she just screwing with Norman? She’s been as evil as Justin so far and even though Justin has become increasingly arrogant and left her more and more in the dark where his plans are concerned, he did save her from prison or possibly the death penalty by framing Tommy Dolan. On the other hand, I believe she is genuinely religious and is concerned about Justin’s megalomania (in one episode, he told her something about “My work” and she said “You mean God’s work”) and she still feels some loyalty toward Norman for saving them as children.
Scudder’s death scene was great filmmaking; shocking, very atmospheric and very, very creepy.
I’m a bit confused about the terminology. I had a Carnivale marathon this weekend, catching up, so I’ve seen them back to back. I think some of the terminology is getting meesed up. When Ben killed Management, these were the exact terms: Management, known as the Prophet, had to be killed by the Prince, Ben, to set things in motion. Scudder was the old Usher, and now Justing has killed him and become the new Usher (yeah!)
This is my question: at what point does the Prince turn into the Prophet (for the Third Age)? Justin to Scudder was Usher to Usher. Where’s the Prophet now, or is there one? Is Lodz the Prophet now? There doesn’t seem to be an old Prince. I don’t quite follow this hierarchy. Any help?
IIRC, Justin is not (yet?) the Usher. He and Ben were both Princes, then Ben killed his Prophet (Management) and became the Prophet of Light (and came into his full powers). Justin needs to kill his Prophet to come into his own as the Prophet of Dark. Then Justin has to kill Ben (his opposite Prophet) to become the Usher.
I have nothing constructive to add, just a bunch of questions about Sophie:
What does being the ‘Omega’ mean? What is she the end of?
Is she meant to give birth to one or both of the princes of the next generation?
Is her power meant to negate or help one of the prophets?
There’s no clear answer to most of those questions yet, except that the ‘Omega’ idea is most probably that Sofie can or will bring about the end of the Age of Wonder, and begin the Age of Reason. Various supernatural non-Avatar humans, like her mother and Lodz, are trying to stop her.
I wish more of the mythology of the show and the backgrounds of the characters was explained on the show instead of on the HBO website and in chats. There’s so much about the story that I learned online that was never mentioned in any episode.
There was a bit of dialogue between Brother Justin and the creepy advisor-guy in which he told Justin that Scudder had to give up his soul willingly and that the best way to do this was to surprise him.
So what I understood was that he had to take his soul at a moment at which Scudder would feel safe.
