Carnivale: Hot and Bothered (SPOILERS)

Cafe Society
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Is anyone still watching?

Brief thoughts (it’s late):

–What’s that Latin motto on the Templar’s building mean? I guess John Doe/Phineas Boffo wasn’t just a one-shot character. Obviously he’s involved in the Search for Henry Scudder.

–I actually felt bad for Sophie in this episode. Apollonia is causing her to see horrific things; she finally reaches out to Jonesy, only to be rebuffed, and she feels really alone. So what happened between her and Jonesy, exactly? They kissed, he said he didn’t want to mess things up, because though she’s different, he’s not. What does that mean? Was he rejecting her, or saying ‘slow down’ or what? She sure took it like a rejection, but then again, pushing men away is what she does best.

–Was Samson moving out of his trailer? Did he share a trailer with Management or something? I’m confused.

–OK, we got more info on Management: Management came on the scene AFTER Scudder left Carnivale. Management is looking for Scudder because of “something that happened in the Old Country… something bad.” That event with the bear? Is Management Justin and Iris’ father?

–So Justin is back, baptized in blood, telling everyone their sins. This is nothing new. What he is up to? What’s his goal here? I’m really interested to see how he and Ben meet.

–Ben finally gets his snake charmed (sorry, I keep flogging this joke to death)-- Ben and Ruthie finally hook up. Lodz comes in, and somehow communicates with Scudder through Ben’s dreams. How does THAT work? Clearly Management and Lodz are trying to get control over Ben, against Scudder’s wishes. Is that what everyone else is getting? And how does Tree Tattoo Man figure into this?

–Seems that Felix has got him a new piece. Catalina de la Rosa? Meet Rita Sue Dreifuss. Meow.

–I’m sure I missed something major here, but…ah well. Between the six of us still watching, I’m sure we’ll pick up on it.

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I’ve kinda convinced myself that Sofie is Ben’s sister. Then in the “final battle” as it were, it would be a smackdown between Team Good (Sofie/Ben) and Team Bad (Justin/Iris). It seems that 3 of the 4 team members each have their own special ability…what is Iris’s? Or maybe I’m just crazy.

I think Management is the bear in the dreams. Not a literal bear, but Scudder is somehow trying to make Ben understand the situation by using the bear to symbolize whatever/whoever management is. Which connects nicely to Lodz “Have you seen my bear?” Furthermore, the bear’s little jacket and hat was hanging on Management’s trailer. I think that Justin’s father is the Russian soldier that at various points either tried to kill the bear or tried to kill Scudder. I’m unsure of how the Tattoo Man fits in, though he could be another embodiement of Managment…Which then kinda throws my Sofie and Ben as siblings theory off, unless they are half-siblings, but then things get complicated…

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I’m watching, but I have almost as many questions as you do.

My feeling is that Jonesy’s affair with Rita Mae is getting in the way of him going further with Sophie. It may be madonna-whore thinking on his part–that he’d prefer to have sex with Rita Mae and keep it nicely romantic with Sophie.

Samson was moving out of his trailer, that was pretty clear, based on previous scenes.

I agree that the bear is symbolic of Management. I was thinking the bear is Management, but pepperlandgirl articulated it better.

I am utterly confused about the tatooed guy.

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One thing I figured out (or least I think I did) was that when Lodz was saying “If he doesn’t sleep I can’t reach him” he wasn’t talking about Ben but Scudder.

The Templar slogan is “In Hoc Signo Vinces/By this sign you will conquer”. I’m wondering if the Templars really weren’t playing dumb and there is a faction of ultra-super-secret Templars (Phineas Boffo in particular) who are in charge of the secrets while surrounding themselves with local rubes to keep out the curious.

Turns out having sex with Ben isn’t a death sentence after all. So scratch that theory.

I’m totally lost on the identity/significance of the Tree Guy, but my only guess at the moment is that he is an avatar for Justin.

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I just googled “In Hoc Signo Vinces,” and I now wish I didn’t.
In the first half dozen hits, it comes up as a sign used by the Catholic Church signifying it’s great power, but it’s also used by the Nazi party in the same context. Ugh.

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In Hoc Signo Vinces btw was the phrase supposedly accompanying Constantine vision of the Cross or Chi Rho which convinced him to legalize Christianity & claim Christ’s patronage at the Battle of Milvern Bridge (I think)

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Hi all! I’m watching too - I guess that makes seven of us, then?

I agree with Ripley about Jonesy - I don’t think he was rejecting Sophie outright, but has elevated her in his mind, which combined with his purely carnal relationship with Rita Sue, makes him reluctant to get sexual with her. I took her “I’m different” comment to refer to losing her virginity, but I don’t think Jonesy got that.

So, are the pregnancy hints just a red herring? I was wondering if her new visions are a side effect of being pregnant. Do we know whether Apollonia had her abilities before she was raped?

Speaking of the rape, in the previous episode, when Sophie sees it happen, something caught my eye. Tattoo man is completely naked, but it looked like there was a flash of a man wearing a shirt, in the same position, making the same motions. So I advanced through that frame by frame (man, I love Tivo). A lot of it is a muddled, blurry mess, but there does seem to be a few seconds of a man in a striped shirt. I don’t think it’s Apollonia, because her nightgown was solid white, and off her shoulder. It’s hard to tell, but it could be Clancy Brown (Justin). If so, it lends creedence to fiddlesticks’s theory.

And oh my, are Felix and Rita Sue headed for a huge blow-up! I think it’s interesting that the show has created such jealous tension between a couple who work as pimp and whore. I take it from Felix’s comments that perhaps she’s so hot for Jonesy because he made her come. In any case, I pity Catalina - Rita Sue could kick her ass, and Felix’s to boot, without breaking a sweat.

As for the people who complained how “slow” the show is (though I suppose they’re not reading these threads anymore), IMHO this show is not just about Ben and Justin having a final good/evil throwdown. If all you want is the upshot, why bother watching a series at all? Just wait until it’s over and have someone give you a synopsis of the final battle.

To me, the show is about all the characters and their relationships. It’s a bit of a soap opera. It’s also about recreating a time and place. Knauf got the idea for the show while watching a carnival set up. I think a lot of the show is just about depicting and exploring the lives of carnies, and it’s fascinating just for that aspect.

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Everyone seems to be saying that management is evil. Didn’t Samson say that Management was good? That means either Samson is also evil or management has him fooled. According to the website, Lodz was in samson’s position, and Samson dethroned him. Why is that?

God I love this show. The character’s are briliant. I just hope HBO sticks with it.

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::whimpers::

Love show. Don’t have HBO anymore.

::whimper::

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I agree, this show is excellent. I’ve somehow become drawn to the characters. Given the fact that Carnivals freak me out and that I hate them, I have to give HBO credit for creating such a brilliant atmosphere that insists I follow every week. It’s the only show I’ve watched with dedication since Seinfeld.

AerynSun - I think you’re right, at first the rapist is completely nude. Flash to Sophie, then flash back, and the rapist is wearing a shirt. All happens very quickly though.

How about the drawing of the Tatoo Man on the Mural at the temple? And in previews for upcoming episode, we see a young child with a tree drawn or tatooed to his front side.

I read a nice theory on the Carnivale BB, I think is worth noting - what do you guys think? I’m copy and pasting it (yes, I need my own theories, thanks):

Russian Soldier = Brother Justin’s father
Scudder = Ben’s father

Brother Justin = Avatar of Darkness
Ben = Avatar of Light

Light begets darkness and darkness begets light.

Therefore…
Russian Soldier = previous generation’s avatar of light
Scudder = last generation’s avatar of darkness

The Russian is the character of light and trys to kill his son, BJ in the train wreck and sends assasians because he knows his potential for evil. BJ’s sister Iris understands Justin’s power and
also is an evil character, leading her brother to this point.

Scudder is trying to kill Ben in his visions.

Management = russian soldier
Lodz = good guy

“Blood will spill” comment at the end of last episode is misleading. The blood of Scudder and his minions will spill. emilyanne

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That’s a great theory. (yes I’m still watching, too, and will be as long the show’s on)

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While I have nothing new to add, I do want to chime in and say 1) Carnivale rocks! Kudos to HBO (again) for their amazing programming. Hopefully this will become another Good TV ™ staple.
2)They better come out with the season 1 DVD as soon as the season is over. I can’t wait to sit down and watch the whole thing nonstop.
3)I think Stover9’s “stolen” theory is pretty much going to be spot on. I think. Maybe. (how is that for a non-commital commital?)

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I’m still watching Carnivale too.

I think Jonesy said no to Sophie because he wants to break things off with Rita Sue first.

The previews for next week even seemed to show Jonesy trying to make a split with Rita Sue and Rita Sue saying something about, “she’s too young.”

I like the theories about management. It would be a pretty serious swerve to have Lodz be a good guy.

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I think Managment is evil, only if you think Scudder and Ben are both good. I wonder if Ben is actually dreaming of WW1? Or if perhaps the war is just Scudder/Management/Lodz fighting each other using Ben as their battle field?

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http://www.carnivale.org/The Unofficial Carnivale Fan Website has a nearly frame-by-frame synopsis of each episode. It’s quite useful for those of us that don’t have TiVo :wink: and it might alleviate some of your pain, ArrMatey.

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I like the theory about Management being the Russian soldier, except… no Russian accent. I can see how Justin and Iris lost theirs, they were kids, but… aw, maybe I’m just nitpicking. However, there’s another question in my mind, if Management is the Russian soldier. This soldier was mauled by a bear trying to save Scudder, if Ben’s dreams are accurate. The bear apparently belonged to Lodz. What does that signify? And why, if Management is good and trying to protect Ben/get rid of Scudder, is Management on the outs with Samson all of a sudden? What exactly has he done wrong? Seems like he just wants Ben to know the truth about his heritage, and what’s so bad about that? And how do the Templars fit into all this?

There are a lot of conflicting pieces of info floating around that make it hard to pick a theory and stick to it. And it’s going to take 3 seasons to get to the bottom of it? It’s gonna be some ride.

Oh, and I wouldn’t be so sure that Rita Sue can kick Catalina’s ass. Size isn’t everything…