Catholic sex-haver seeks an ear

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

This will probably seem a most silly OP, but yet here goes nothing.

I think it was Jung who said that religious questions are usually about sex, and sex questions usually about religion. This is one of those questions. I guess that’s obvious from the title, strange as it is.

I’m Catholic, very much so. If I was one of the rank-and-file ‘frozen chosen,’ then I wouldnt be experiencing so much inner turmoil at the present. See, I’m sexually active. I’ve been with three women (and one ladel) over the course of the last two years, and they’ve all been great relationships. It’s not the relationships that trouble me, at least I dont think so.

The thing is, I can never decide how to approach my sexuality. Before my first relationship, I was in accord with Church teachings but never really gave it much thought. So, when push came to shove, it was a most pleasurable shove in the end. At that point, I decided Church teachings were fucked up, and went on my blissful way up until last fall.

Around this September, I thought long and hard about sex (is there any other way?), and I changed my tune. It was my C.S. Lewis class that changed my mind I believe. I decided that I’d wait until marriage before the waist-shaking, the writhing in a naked sweat, the hey laaady, and what-have-you. Of course, not being in a relationship, this kind of thinking was quite easy. I had a premonition that if I dated a girl again, my resolve would not be so firm, although whether I would either fall to temptation or once more change my mind was not clear.

Oh, how I wish I could just write off my latest bed-romping as a sin of the flesh. What I would give to have that clarity! You see, I haven’t changed my mind entirely and gone back to my former wordly mind-set. I’m stuck in a limbo, with my faith and my church on on side and seemingly the rest of the world on the other. I’m stuck in the middle, leaning one way and then the next, like a demented Bobo doll. I feel embarrassed just writing this, because this must all seem so absurd. “You have a relationship.” “You have poonanny!!” “You’re a religious fool…” I can hear the crowing now… but whatever.

Indulge me if you will a little history of my ideas regarding sexual propriety. This may be borderline GD material, but at the moment I seek advice only. Theological debate I’m gladly willing to have, but first things first. Anyway, I cant even remember what I thought before my first escapade, so I’ll skip to after that when I was on the sex-ok side. I thought then that sex was ok if there was love, agape in particular, that if both parties gave their self entirely that this made the sex act good. I had that with my second relationship, at least I think so. Second, I felt that the last entity on earth to preach about sexual matters was the Catholic Church. I live in Boston after all. Third, I felt that sex was natural and that denying such an urge was unnatural. All in all, I was quite confident in my views.

Reading Lewis energized my faith life, and so I began to wonder if I was right after all. A couple of things led me to once more agree with my church. One, how can one have agape such as I mentioned outside of a marriage? How can one give onself completely if there is the possibility of future seperation? “I love you completely, but only until we break up?” Given the premise, it seemed logical. Second, my attack on the church’s sexual faults was merely an ad hominem, called for but not critical to the argument.

The third one was a little trickier. I think that maybe the sex urge is not natural, not part of Natural Law. Was it a result of the Fall? One can say that jealousy of a richer neighbor is perfectly natural, but that doesn’t make it good. Of this I’m not sure.

A final blow came from a scriptural argument put forth by Lewis, written by Paul, that copulation binds souls together. If sex binds souls, then one partner seems most appropriate.

That last section was far from eloquent, but hopefully it got the gist across. Those are the arguments I think about, and, while I understand them, I dont know if I believe them. This wouldn’t be a problem except either my church or the world must be correct. I’ve changed my mind too many times to stay in this cloud of confusion any longer… I live for the truth, and there is only one truth (imho).

Feelings-wise, I can quote the great Dr.Zoidberg in saying “oh the guilt… the horrible guilt!” But, whether this guilt is because of any actual wrongdoing or a byproduct of uprearing is unclear.

Acting upon the Christian premise that sin begets more sin, I’ve been observing whether I’ve been acting in any other ways that could be sinful. To the best of my knowledge, I haven’t been. My faith is the same as usual.

I’ve rambled long enough. At the present moment I’m leaning towards going back to my church stance, but, I dont want to again wait for marriage to loosen the bedsprings unless I am certain. At my present rate, alone with my thoughts, prayers, and opinions, I’m going nowhere fast. Are there any other Christians or Christian Dopers who happily engage in pre-marital sex? Am I deluding myself into thinking I can have my cake and eat it too? Am I a moron for being so dramatic? Please help :o

2

You spelled “ladle” wrong.

I can offer no advice to you besides to tell you that I personally think that people must abandon religious restrictions around sexual practice in order to mentally liberate themselves. I think that if they do not do so, they will be tormented by guilt which can later lead to serious mental problems. Sex is pure biology and we have got to accept that. This doesn’t mean that nobody should be sexually restrained - everyone ought to figure out their own level of sexual restraint that works for them, and practice it. If they find that their activities are preventing them from developing a meaningful relationship, or are detrimental to them in some other personal way, then that’s something they have to deal with. But I think religion should be left out of it.

Hey, you asked for my opinion.

3

I think the overwhelming evidence offered up by the non-human parts of the animal and plant world indicate that this is an absurd thought, even for a believer. Following the flood, the Main Man must have had a procreative idea in mind for repopulation of the earth, in both the animal and human spheres. Or did he expect the post-deluge fauna suddenly to start splitting like amoebae?

By extension of your argument, since most procreation arises from the sex urge, then the entire human population of the earth, the vast majority conceived by at least one person in a state of sexual excitement, is a byproduct of the Fall.

In which case, you’re doomed anyway, so get shagging.

4

This says it all. Denying the urge IS unnatural. But then again, one of the foundations of Christianity is requiring followers to resist everything that’s natural in addition to making one think that by pursuing natural urges (classifying them as “sins”) they will be condemned to an eternity of fire. Because, after all, suffering, guilt, and fear make for more obedient followers.

Yes, I do have issues with Christianity, why do you ask?

5

I’m not sure what’s a worse idea from a Christian perpective- that a Christian can happily & with impunity indulge in non-marital sex (PRE-marital isn’t that big a deal if indeed it is followed by marriage IMO) OR that the sex urge is not a part of the original Good Creation, but a result of the Fall.

If indeed sex is a linking of souls as well as bodies, then it would be a good policy to only get involved with girls with whom there is a alignment of beliefs & values, and when the sex urge arises (and it will), ask yourself these things-

Could I happily marry this woman?

Would I be good for & good to her & vice verse?

Might this be God’s woman for me?

And if you can honestly answer yes to all this, and if she feels/thinks the same way, then ask one more question-

Why not get married and wait until then for the sex?

Four people in two years? (What’s a ladel?) Even for a well-meaning but weak-willed believer, that sounds a bit excessive.

YMMV.

6

Sex is a natural urge, right enough… but something being natural doesn’t mean it’s always or even usually a good idea to indulge it. Being able to act against our biological impetus is one of the things that makes us human, in my opinion: I may have the desire to have sex with lots of women, but I know that I’m not capable of handling the consequences of that series of actions.

7

Welcome to my daily conflict. Well, one of them anyways. If you substitute Baptist for Catholic, I could have written quite a bit of the OP. I was all for waiting until marriage. Then I met ‘the one’ and we were going to wait together. Engagement derailed, life derailed. Anger, I guess at God for all of this happening to me, so I thought, obviously it doesn’t matter much either way so I decided not to wait. Currently, I am in a relationship and we are, um, not waiting, but we are talking about getting married in 3 to 5 years. But most days it’s all just there in the back of my head.

I’m rambling I guess and of no help whatsoever, except to say that you’re not alone in pondering these things.

8

I’ve got you beat Autolycus. I’m a Catholic lesbian who wants to be a nun. I’m pretty pro-poonanny (to use your term), particularly when it’s my own. That being said, sex and masturbation don’t really fit with the life I feel God calling me to.

My suggestion would be to pray. You sound like you have a fairly well developed conscious and the Church tells us that it is our jobs to both develop our conscious and to listen to it. The Church has been known to be wrong and will probably continue to be wrong on until it ceases to be. If your well developed conscious tells you to do something that the Church teaches against, it may be worth listening to it. Continue to pray, though! Listen to the Spirit and where it leads you. If you are open to the idea that the Church might not be right and continue to feel guilt over extramarital sex, then it might be that you shouldn’t be having it. It’s a decision that can’t be made just with your head, but rather your heart as well.

I know it sounds cheesy and totally uncomfortable, but if you have a priest or spiritual advisor that you feel comfortable speaking with about the subject, that might be helpful as well. Be careful with that, though. Make sure it’s someone who isn’t just going to push Church law down your throat. There are many good priests who will listen and have a genuine conversation about sex with you.

As a last note, if you’d like to talk farther about this with someone else who struggles, feel free to PM me. I’m walking that same road right now. It sucks sometimes.

9

I don’t think you’re going to get a lot of help on this board, being that many of its members pride themselves on being rowdy nonconformist freethinkers (just like everyone else). I likely won’t be much help either, though. Being raised in a sort of lapsed Baptist tradition (thou shalt not acknowledge thy brethren in the liquor store, that kind of thing), and constantly told, “Don’t have sex. Sex is sacred and should only be shared with your spouse,” and yet seeing every day people who professed this and clearly didn’t follow it. I decided early on that this was a crock, even when I still considered myself a Christian. I didn’t have casual sex, not because someone else told me it was wrong not to, but because the more casual sex I had, the worse I felt, since I wasn’t taking proper care of myself by having such encounters. Now I’m ready to call myself an agnostic, because I don’t know what the hell is going on, but I still feel the same about sex. Yes, it’s a natural urge. Yes, other creatures have it. But one of the points of being human is that you know there are consequences for what you do, and you need to take that into consideration before you do stuff.

10

It’s better to marry than to burn. Why don’t you get married?

11

I don’t mean to denigrate your religion, but IMHO, the Catholic Church is just about the worst source of information regarding sex on which to rely. Not to say that sex shouldn’t be informed by morality at all, just that denial and guilt don’t help matters.

12

According to the Church, sex is an expression of God’s love for us. Sex is special - it’s not just some pleasant aerobic exercise. And it’s right to wait for the one person that’s you want to share your life with to share sex with.

You’re called to live a Christly life. Christ didn’t go around having sex with every kitchen implement that didn’t say no. And as Argent Towers said, it’s spelled “ladle”.

StG

13

I could have written this word for word.

Even when I considered myself to be a Christian, I still subscribed to “try before you buy”, and I’m glad I did because I would have hated to be married to some of them before finding out how lousy they were in bed. :stuck_out_tongue:

14

Recovered Catholic and current UU…

Why are you Catholic? Are you Catholic because that was the default position - you were raised Catholic therefore it is what you believe? Or are you Catholic because you made a religious choice as an adult (and Confirmation in eighth grade don’t cut it) to be Catholic? It may be possible to take your strong faith and transplant it onto a more liberal church with less emphasis on guilt and sin and find both spiritual and personal satisfaction.

The trappings of Catholicism are wonderful - the baggage isn’t.

15

What Telperien and MissMossy said.

Autolycus, it seems to me that you have three choices: give up your premarital sex life, give up your faith, or give up your sanity. I would definitely recommend praying, meditation, or whatever you do to quiet the whirring mind, so that you can hear what your heart says.

“How can one give onself completely if there is the possibility of future seperation?” There is always the possibility of future separation. Being married does not change that. But you give anyways, because the giving and receiving is in the present, not the future. The fears of the future are yet another unreal product of the whirring mind.

MissMossie, do you mean “conscience” or “consciousness”?

16

Here goes (and this response is from a christian perspective, as requested by the OP - I’ll only answer to comments from the same perspective)… with the proviso that I am a protestant and not particularly au fait with catholic teaching,

The first thing to say is sexual sin (of any sort) is not really different to any other sin. So premarital sex has the same same level of consequence as lying, or stealing, or murder. The bible does not make distinctions. All sin ends up damaging our relationship with the Father. But by the same token, Gods forgiveness is always available to us (if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and skipping over the whole catholic interpretation of confession). And if we are part of God Kingdom, we can’t lose that through sin. All we do is lose some of the blessing that we could have had. We still have to deal with the consequences of sin, but we can’t do anything that puts us outside of God’s love.
And this is pretty important - any conversation about what the bible says about sex needs to start here - in the long (eternal life) run, salvation is what is important, and you hang on to that no matter what you do, sexually or otherwise.

The next point is that sexual desire is part of Gods will. He gave Eve to Adam, and (like the rest of creation) He saw that it was good. People are created to desire the opposite sex. So desire and attraction and sexual chemistry are all part of what makes us Gods creation.

But the bible makes it clear that Gods perfect plan for His people is chastity and fidelity. And some people can achieve that - I was still a virgin on my wedding night and I have only slept with my wife. But before I met my wife, I engaged in sexual behaviour with girlfriends that I’m not really proud of, and while my wife and I were engaged, we went further than we should. Was it sin — yes. Did we seek forgiveness — yes. Did we get it — absolutely. Did we fall again — yep. It is the way people are, sometimes. We are called to live our lives like Jesus, but it is a process, and we sin in all sorts of ways. The apostle Paul comments on this - We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. Rom 7:14-15. It is as we struggle and grow out of sin that become more like Christ.

So the struggle against sexual sin is a common one. It is hard - sex is one of the strongest internal drives that God has given us. It can be won, but failing is not the end of the world, nor does it damn you to hell, or even purgatory (which I don’t believe in). If you are earnestly seeking after Christ, then maybe the situations that increase the chance of sexual sin won’t be as common. Maybe not. But no matter, God still loves you and still wants the best for you.

However, I just have to say that you still need to be aware of the consequences of your actions. If and when you meet someone you want to share your life with permanently, you won’t be able to offer your chastity to them as a gift on your wedding night. It’s not a big deal, as long as you have been honest about things. If your chosen partner is in love with you, forgiveness will follow. And for those who have waited for marriage, there should be no judgment on a partner who hasn’t succeeded in waiting. Other consequences may be more longterm - STDs, pregnancies. Of course, these things should be avoided - premarital sex may be a sin, but you don’t need to be stupid about it. Appropriate precautions need to be taken.

So - find your path. It seems to me that as you are getting in touch with your faith, you are more aware of your conscience. Maybe it needs to be your guide, but don’t judge yourself for the past, and accept that failing in the future gives an opportunity for more learning.

Oh, and just to add, in 35 years of reading the bible, I have never found a verse that says that masturbation is a sin. Lustful thoughts can be, but that is a different issue.

Si

17

I’m a cafeteria Catholic - I admit I pick and choose which rules to ignore. I’m not necessarily proud of this, nor am I ashamed. I’ve just grown to accept it. I can relate to your angst.
In my wilder single days (ha!) I did the classic “good Christian girl” mental trick of telling myself that as long as there wasn’t intercourse, it didn’t count. There are so many other ways of keeping your guy and yourself happy! Yeah, looking back on it, I suppose it counted. But it quieted the guilt for me at the time because I was, technically, still denying myself.
I met my (now) spouse and decided I didn’t care anymore. I knew I was going to marry him before I slept with him, and that made it okay for me. “Okay for me” is the important part. I was comfortable with the justification that as long as I was serious about this guy, it was okay to sleep with him. I still don’t regret what I did. I haven’t attended confession since then because technically I should confess the “sin”, but I’m not sorry, and you shouldn’t confess sins for which you are not repentant. Naughty Catholic!

And now I’m on the pill, (Bad Catholic! No cookie!) and I don’t have a problem with it. I’ve long ago decided that the church can stay out of my bedroom. (and my living room, and the bathroom, but not the kitchen - that’s just wrong)

A couple of years ago I thought long and hard about all of the aspects of the church with which I disagree. If I’m not going to play by the rules, shouldn’t I find a religion that I’m in more agreement with? Why should I get to pick which rules to abide by (attending church every Sunday) and which ones to ignore (attending holy days of obligation)? I came to the conclusion that even imperfect participation in organized religion is enough of a benefit to my faith that it is worth continuing. Maybe my guilt gene isn’t strong enough.

My point is, only you can decide if the guilt you feel from gettin jiggy with it is enough to outweigh your desire to get frisky. You are human and the desire to replicate isn’t going to go anywhere. Either you will continue physical relationships and live with the guilt, or you will abstain and live with unanswered physical urges. There is no clean answer.
And for the record, Paul tends to tick me off more than anyone.

18

This is probably true. I expect you’ll get a lot of, “Well, Christianity is dumb and screwed up anyway, particularly about sex, so don’t torment yourself.” And I don’t think going somewhere like the Catholic Answers fora would be what you’re looking for, either, since most of them are hard-line about the Magisterium.

I don’t think that that it’s an either/or situation- either sex is the result of the Fall and evil or sex is entirely natural and restraining any sexual urges is wrong. First off, I don’t think, and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach, that sex and desire are results of the Fall. It does teach that our whole natures are damaged because of the Fall, and that our desires and emotions can be inordinate- lacking order, right direction- as a result.

Something can be natural but not right. My entirely natural desire be nasty to someone I don’t like isn’t justified by its naturalness. My desire for a seat on the bus doesn’t justify me shoving someone else off it. And, a little closer, my desire for one good thing (more sleep) can be put aside for a better thing (going to work so I can help support my family). And my desire to have sex with an attractive man can be restrained in favour of waiting for the total self-giving in marriage. We all restrain ourselves all the time, pushing away our wants and desires in favour of things we think are better than our current impulses.

As I understand it, in Augustinian theology, evil itself doesn’t really exist- there’s just lesser goods, or things ‘tending towards nothingness’. That probably doesn’t help you at all, I just find it a useful concept, myself.
This is turning into a novel. I myself am a very new Catholic, received into the Church at Easter Vigil last April. I am not an expert on the Church’s teaching on sexuality, although I think what I’ve written above is a reasonable representation. I would recommend talking to a priest or maybe your C. S. Lewis professor, if you can, and if you have one you feel comfortable talking to, and reading Love and Responsibility, by John Paul II, and the Theology of the Body. Do you have a confessor that you can talk to? I would also be very glad to correspond with you via email about this if you’d like.
MissMossie, I’m glad you’re discerning! That’s very exciting. :smiley:

19

Amen. You’re looking in the wrong place for temperance and prudence re sex here (IMO), but that viewpoint is out there and not uncommon. I don’t frequent many websites or bbs so I have no links for you. I, too, found I disliked casual sex.

I think that just because we can always have sex doesn’t mean we should always. With sex comes (pardon the pun) morals, emotional and hygiene issues (I lump STDs in with hygiene). I’m not up on the Nature channel, but humans are one of the very few animals who can mate 24/7 (I think some chimps can, too–not sure. Cecil did a column waaaaay back about chimps masturbating). IMO, this ability and our complex social structure demand a less than casual approach to sex. Obviously, this stance differs depending on the individual–I think you are rethinking your approach to sex and are not sure just what to do.

I’m a cynical agnostic at this point in my life, but I second the praying for what you might derive out of it. (I don’t know what that would be–but it may help and cannot hurt). I also second talking to someone who is more steeped in spiritual matters than you (be careful here-there are lots and lots of odd people in religion; I would work on a trust relationship and then ask/tell–especially about the ladle. You don’t want to be marginalized just as you are questing).

And, lastly, I have no idea how old you are, but to make a decision such as yours takes courage and fortitude in this world of wall to wall porn and “hooking up” and fuck buddies etc. I wish you well. Would that more people were more disciplined in their personal lives–a lot of pain could be avoided all round.

20

I may be a bad source for an answer. I thought out my answer back when I was a good Catholic, in high school, so hopefully my current status is irrelevant.

My first problem with the church’s view came before sex was even an issue for me. I believe I was around 14 when they began preaching against masturbation and being a good catholic I listened and stopped. That led to an inevitable problem when I woke up some mornings later. I couldn’t understand God hardwiring in something and then not allowing you to deal with it.

About a year later we started getting the sex talks. They used many of the same arguments that you have used but the commingling of two souls really stuck in my head, probably because the girl I was dating at the time believed that kissing did the same thing and wouldn’t makeout, we just held hands. But when I started to think about it, what are you supposed to do if you wife dies. Are you stuck in a life of never being able to have sex again because part of you soul has died? That seemed ridiculous so I came to the conclusion that once you remarried you could go back to having sex. But if you can give part of your soul to different people what is marriage but the church recognizing that you want to do so? Is it the marriage what’s important or the giving of your soul? If it just the marriage then love doesn’t matter in which case marry some one, have sex and then get a divorce. You know Brittney style. But that seems unlikely so I concluded that giving part of you soul was the answer. If you genuinely want to marry some one but they lie to you any sins from that marriage are not you fault so I concluded that even if the other person does not give of themselves all that is required was for you to give. You are correct about breakups and how you can love someone only to eventually never want to see them again or give part of yourself only to leave part of it behind. My solution was not to give it to every good looking woman I dated once or twice but only to those that I would be ok with them having a part forever.

I think premarital sex is fine and a necessary thing, back when people were getting married at 14 it was ok to wait the equipment didn’t work until the wedding night. It is just necessary to be prepared for the consequences and willingly and knowingly get involved.

On a personal note I’ve since moved a little farther away and come to realize that any one can become special to you and one good way of find out is having sex which is why I won’t have sex with anyone that I wont date but I will have sex before we date, you know like in a car out side a bar. Any how hope this helps out, sorry its so long.