Cenk Uygur running for Pres

Since we’ve moved to a larger discussion on primary challengers rather than just Cenk, I want to pause for a moment to bring up the elephant in the room: Trump.

@Mijin has been passionately making the point that in a functioning Democracy, a qualified challenger has every right to go against an incumbent if they can do a better job of running the party or the nation. This isn’t wrong.

BUT

That’s not what Cenk is/was doing according to the OP. They were stating that Biden is weak and that others (including themselves, but not limited to themselves) could or should do a better job.

Campaigning on the weakness of the leading candidate (leaving out entirely the debate on whether said weakness is real or imagined) DOES damage that candidate if they win the primary, whether or not that’s the intent.

Unless (as we see on the Republican side) the cult (of personality or otherwise) is so entrenched that any weakness, verifiable real (90+ indictments) or imagined is hand-waved as an alternate reality. Biden is a far better person than Trump (yes, I know, drastic understatement), but doesn’t command an unquestioning base.

If we WEREN’T in a situation of a post-Trump world with the SCOTUS corruptly (but legally!) unbalanced, the Republican party overtaken by nihilists, multiple escalating world events that we’re increasingly too paralyzed to deal with due to internal division, and with the strong possibility of the enabler of all the above (not source, but enabler) being granted a position of supreme executive power… I’d be willing to give @Mijin’s world of ideals over practicality a chance.

For example, if this was 2008 or 2012 and we were running against McCain or even Romney, we’d be in a position where I’d be unhappy with the results, but wouldn’t doubt the sanity or the safety of the nation if they won. I would just wish the Democratic candidate had done better. Heck, talking about 2008, there was a feeling that Obama was a spoiler of sorts, and it should have been Hillary instead.

But it’s 2024. The other side is Trump. I firmly doubt the sanity of Trump, and equally so the safety of the nation (at least, as a democratic one) if he wins. Trump has the advantage of a nearly unified propaganda machine, a supine party, and a willingness to throw Democracy under the bus as long as he gets what he wants.

Right now, an ideal candidate is the one that beats Trump. Biden, of all the current options, is the closest to that ideal. Do I wish we had a younger candidate? Sure do. Do I wish sometimes that he’d fight back at Trump’s level? Emotionally, sure, but playing the game the other guy is good at isn’t a winning option either.

And sure, I know a lot of people are further left than me politically and would want a candidate closer to their preferences, but that’s a known issue with a (compared to Republicans/MAGA) broad tent.

Absolutely though, even if the Democrats win in 2024 ( :pray: ) the party absolutely has to work on messaging, and build the bench as it were. We need more of Jeffries and Gretchen, we need to build up our brave Tennessee members who got right back out after being forced out on a pretext, we need each and all of them. We need to stop letting Republicans control the narrative, or telling us that our candidates are old, weak, senile or unwilling to make tough decisions.

Because the recent House fight has proven that even without Trump, MAGA isn’t going away, it’s the dominant force in the party. And they’ve already proven repeatedly that they’ll crush any Democratic norms for wealth, power and ego.

I know, that’s what I was emphasizing:

That the only person who has even questioned the premise, is someone saying it’s always been true but insists it’s only become a little bit worse in recent years.

I certainly hope that happens, but I’d say it’s more like a significant issue with his campaigning last time, and now with it being a bigger problem this time, the election hands on the edge of a blade (I can’t remember an expression for “really close”).

Okay, fair enough, and yes you sum up my thoughts accurately.

I think I can agree with this.

Anyone campaigning for the presidency at this point should be emphasizing the great job Biden has done, the existential risk of MAGA, and just saying that a new young voice is needed to take the GOP to task.

Attacks on Biden shouldn’t be necessary and of course will be friendly fire if Biden still is the nominee.

Thank you @Mijin. I know things were getting heated (again) and thought then, and still do, that almost all of us were agreeing more than disagreeing overall. Of course, this place being what it is, we can and will shiv each other (metaphorically speaking PLEASE) over those comparatively minor points of disagreement.

Yeah thanks, I do sometimes struggle with dialling back once things have got heated.

I don’t think the disagreements in this thread are actually that big. Biden does appear slow (even though he’s been amazing at getting things done), cenk has no chance whatsoever and trump/MAGA winning would be an absolute disaster for American democracy. All unanimous views I think.

You know what Ben said, “Haste makes waste”. Well, I think he said that, though it might be a much older saw.
       It sounds jokey, but, seriously, it is not a joke. CFSG was impetuous, did things boldly, quickly (… in two weeks …), fucked up all of it. All of it. The slower pace of the Biden administration is something Americans do appreciate (poll numbers notwithstanding). As you said, he gets things done.
       Though, we still have a Space Force. That needs to be done away with. Why can Joe not just dismantle that?

I think a part of it is how we use the flexibility of the English language.

The word slow has a lot of less than positive connotations.

If we all used a partial synonym of “deliberate” it would dump a lot of those connotations.

But sometimes those are the meanings they intend to apply, certainly so for places like Fox, but not always. Or those people who like plausible deniability “Hey, I never said -that- but now that you mention it…”

Like I said, Democrats / Liberals / Progressives have indeed been letting the Republicans as a whole have the initiative, and it’s not been working particularly well. It is something to work on in the future, but one that is likely to never work against Trump who will spout whatever he thinks will work for his crowd at the moment, reality be damned.

Well the Space Force at least gave us Space Force, the comedy with Steve Carell and John Malkovich (well I liked it anyway).
But why is Louis DeJoy still Postmaster General? You’re fired, Louis!

Because the Postmaster General serves at the will of the Board of Governors of the Postal Service; the president is not in charge of hiring him, nor firing him.

The President is in charge of appointing members of the Board (with Senate approval), but not the Postmaster General.

Not to be contrary again, but I have heard that Space Force somewhat makes sense.

…not as a wannabe Starship Troopers, but just basically monitoring threats to satellites and the supporting infrastructure…it’s work that has been bounced around to various departments around the military and could do with some degree of fenced off resources.

If it results in shiny silver suits for no practical reason, even better :slight_smile:

Yes I heard it’s not the simplest matter. Even so three-plus years on and the Senate has confirmed five Biden nominees, but DeJoy is like a boil that can’t be lanced.

It seems that Biden may actually be happy with some of DeJoy’s more recent initiatives with the USPS, particularly in modernizing the service’s fleet with more environmentally friendly trucks.

We’ve had a primary?

We we were discussing whether the primary contest had harmed Trump, and I missed typing the word “contest” once.

Saying the Democrats need a new young voice is absolutely an attack on Biden.

The word contest isn’t the problem. You’ve said several times how Trump did in the primaries. He hasn’t done anything in the primaries. Because none of the primaries have occurred yet.

The difference is I’m happy to see Trump facing a primary challenge because I want Trump to lose. I don’t want Biden to face a primary challenge because I want Biden to win.

I really need to dig up some of the “We need to primary Obama because REASONS and that’s why I’m supporting Dennis Kucinich” think-pieces from 2011 that made all of these same arguments.

Let’s all dial back, ok? Obviously you know what I was getting at – the point being put to me was that primary contests are inherently damaging to the main candidate, and I was responding that that doesn’t appear to have been the case right now for Trump. Trump’s support has grown so far, and the person once touted to unseat him (RDS) is hemorrhaging support and is likely close to dropping out.

Of course, me too. But again, I was responding to the point that primarying Biden is different to primarying Trump because the latter is not the incumbent. But…Trump’s not some fresh political candidate, he’s a former president campaigning for a second term…this is the closest to incumbent vs incumbent that it’s possible to get.