Chapter & Verse: a factual question on the bible and homosexuality

Factual Questions
1

Please be patient with me.

For years I have been hearing that the bible condemns homosexuality, and have accepted this.

Last night, it finally occured to me that I was essentially taking the word of people who believe all gays are going to hell on the appropriate translation of an ancient text hand copied over centuries.

Maybe I should examine their raw data.

For the first time in my life, I want to know exactly what the bible
does say about homosexuality.

I would like chapter and verse references so that I can read the passages in translations other than the standard King James.

Then we can move to Great Debates and discuss whether it was a camel or a rope in Matthew.

2

Leviticus is one of the most commonly cited:

Lev 18:22

Lev 20:13

There are the men of Gibeah from Judges 19, where a concubine is given to be raped to prevent sodomy.

“Know” in the biblical sense means “have sex with.”

And there’s this one from I Corinthians 6.

“effeminate” here is often translated as “sodomites.”

3

The four “standard” passages are:

Leviticus 18:22, Three translations

Leviticus 20:13, Three translations

I Corinthians 6:9 - 10, Three translations

Romans 1:24 - 32, Three translations

Note that the exact meaning of several of these passages has been called into question by some. The translations, themselves, reflect the ideas of the translators and the words chosen in English to represent the original Hebrew and Greek may be “sense” translations and not literal translations–leaving the reader at the mercy of what the translator “sensed.”
Note that in Corinthians, the NIV uses “male prostitute” (which is closer to the literal meaning in the Greek)–a phrase with a specific meaning beyond merely homosexual relations.

4

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

5

Sorry, that’s from Romans 1.

6

So far all of the quotes seem to be about male homosexuality. Any that pretain female homosexuality as being a sin?

7

I don’t think there are any that specifically address female homosexuality, but I could be wrong about that.

8

I noticed that, too.

And that pimping to gang-rapist is just fine (well, I haven’t looked up the passage yet; maybe sending out the daughter and concubine is not considered a praiseworthy act.)

No wonder I ignored what the bible had to say about sex for so long.

Now I can check out the passages. You’ve all been a great help; thank you for these and other references.

9

Svt4Him, judging from the Scripture you quoted, people who gossip, lie, say unkind things about another, act in proud (self-righteous?) ways, boast, disobey parents and are unloving, unmerciful and unforgiving are deserving of death.

That doesn’t seem to let anyone off the hook.

Do you believe that breaking one of the Ten Commandments is the biggest mistake that a person can make?

10

I believe breaking any of the commandments are bad. But where does Romans mention gossip?

As for women:

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

11

Right where you posted

or, as rendered in the NIV

or, in the Young’s Literal Translation

12

Thank you, Svt4Him, don’t know how I missed it the first time. :embarrassed: Thanks again.

13

An interresting way to read the bible is the skeptics annotated bible, which looks at the King James text in a new (admittedly not very friendly) way. Among other things, they have lifted out everything the bible has to say on homosexuality on one page.

Another interresting page is this one, from religioustolerance.org, but then we’re already looking at interpretations, and that doesn’t really belong in this forum.

14

You’d better not rely on the SAB for any serious inquiries. This is far from being a serious scholarly endeavour.

15

Thank you!
That thread is interresting reading. It’s a pity that the maintainer seems to be such an arse, or it could have been an interresting resource. I agree that it’s not a very scholarly work, but I still think that for the purpose of the OP, it would have fitted the bill. (As long as one keeps in mind that the author has several axes to grind.)

16

Thanks; I’ll give the SAB a pass for now. I am trying to get passed several thousands of years of axes.

What I am interested in the original text for words such as ‘abomination’ and ‘unnatural’. What is the oldest know term, and how have scholars translated it other places.

For example, where the currents translations refer to men knowing men, did original extant text use the equivalent of ‘andros’ or ‘anthropos’?

[Pardon me if I have the cases wrong; I really can not read Greek, and I can’t find my dictionary anywhere. Does anyone know of on-line Greek, Latin and/or Coptic dictionary?]

17

The matter is so simple.

When life was so precarious everything had to be done to produce more babies, so that more would survive. That was the reason why all kinds of sex acts which did not lead to babies were abominations.

Now, there are so many babies in the world today. And on the other hand, there are people who are by their nature attracted to the same sex. So now society or people will tend more and more to not be alarmed and thereby not be opposed to let these kinds of people do whatever they want with the same sex, provided there is mutual consent and they are both of the age of consent.

Wherefore, now we even have gays who can be bishops, and one day maybe even a gay pope who is not bound to chastity, namely, he can be a person married to the same sex partner, be it a man or a woman, from both sides of the partnership – because one day we can see also a woman pope.

Don’t lose any sleep because some people are happy with sex done to and by a partner of the same sex. And don’t be searching the Bible for opposition or support on gays and their activities and unions, provided no one is forced into their kind of sex games and plays and joys. Remember, the Bible was written by people and for people among whom producing babies was a precarious process, and bringing them up to adult survival was equally or more hazardous.

Susma Rio Sep