Please, please, please, learn a little about the conflict (or lack of it, as the case is at the moment) before you comment on it. I don’t expect you be an expert, bu please learn more than what the local NORAID representative or the nearest Billy Boy tells you. There is a LOT more to it than that.
Okay. So? And why would I be aware of this, or even care? I’m neither American nor Middle Eastern. Or was this directed at Neurotik?
When did I suggest that all French, or all Americans, share the same views and beliefs? Has anyone in this thread said this? Are you insane, or is making strawman arguments just your modus operandi?
In the end, I don’t really see much of a difference between French, Americans, or most people in the world. I certainly can’t see any real difference that would be supported by any objective evidence. But you can joke about it.
I would think that you would care if you are to say something silly like:
As for this…
You didn’t suggest this; others did.
Please, learn to read more carefully in the future before spouting nonsense.
Bah–all nations are more-or-less equal when it comes to ‘guilt’. Usually if your country isn’t currently shitting on someone, they at one time did (or were/are shat upon themselves). So any talk of that kind of stuff is sort of pointless, IMHO.
But as far as cultures–a good chunk of them are freakin hilarious! I mean, come on, does anyone actually want the French to disappear? Think of how dull the globe would be without a culture that produces a bunch of people in gigantic, 30+ ft. tall condom/hats riding unicycles. You can’t write shit that funny! And how about the Germans? Have you seen how goofy lederhosen look, especially when paired with one of those dorky Austrian feather-hats? Every time I see some guy parading around in that outfit I about die laughing.
And 'Merika certainly isn’t immune either. I mean, look at Michael Jackson–that guy is the quintessential product of American culture (a McPopstar, if you will) and I can hardly wait to see the next amusing thing he does. Or how about all the wierdly bulging silicates we have living in California? Or those grit-loving Southerners? Or sheep-shagging Westerners? Or those damn Yankees! God damn it folks–people are amusing and if we can’t laugh about it this world will become a much colder place.
Gah. This is the sort of overreaction that gives all “political correctness” (which is just a new name for “not being a jerk”) a bad name. If you expect people to listen to your protests against real jerkitude, you can’t go around crying wolf about things like this.
Look, if I hated the French, the last thing I’d call them would be CESMs. I’d call them “rude, arrogant xenophobes.” “Cheese-eating surrender monkeys,” in contrast, is an obviously tongue-in-cheek joke. Serious attempts at ethnic slurs do not include the words “cheese” and “monkeys.” The humor comes directly out of the fact that it’s so over the top as an insult as to be completely ludicrous. It’s mocking bigotry itself, by means of parody, more than it’s actually mocking the French.
If someone says “those fat, ignorant, warmongering Americans only notice the rest of the world when they’re looking for places to invade,” I will consider being offended, because that sounds like someone who has a serious problem with Americans. If they say, “those imperialist burger-eating Yankee pigs only notice the rest of the world when they’re looking for places to invade,” I’ll laugh hard, because they clearly don’t really mean anything against Americans. (And thanks to whichever of the offenderati had the brilliant idea of throwing “burger-eating” in there, that makes it twice as funny.)
If someone says “he’s completely racist, but then he’s from Georgia, so what do you expect?” as though they seriously think racism is confined to the South, I will be offended as a southerner. If they say “Aw, go back to playing the banjo and fucking your cousin, redneck, and don’t forget to brush your tooth tonight,” that’s funny.
If someone says “You’re German? Get away from me, I don’t associate with white supremacists,” that’s offensive. When Conan O’Brien did a sketch on “dogs around the world” which included a German shepherd in an SS uniform, that was funny. See? (And when the next gag had a French poodle surrendering to the German shepherd, that was fucking hilarious.)
Listen: I love the French. When I visited France I found the people I encountered to be incredibly polite, friendly and forgiving of my mangled attempts to speak their language. Probably the kindest treatment I’ve ever received from a total stranger was from, I kid you not, a Parisan waiter. I bring that story up every time I hear someone seriously talk about the French being rude. If I hear someone display serious, non-ironic contempt for the French, I’ll be one of the first to jump in and defend them. But “cheese-eating surrender monkeys?” Still funny.
So it seems, one should remain quiet or ignore the bigotry that is imposed upon others simply because it is not directed at them?
Hmmm, this logic eludes me. When Adolph Eichmann asked the world to take the Jews off Germany’s hands, he even offered to foot the bill to send them abroad. The world basically declared “it is not OUR problem”. We chose to ignore the situation and let it work itself out without intervening.
You’re probably right, I should just shut the fuck up MYSELF and ignore this ignorance. I have been known to do this, as have we all, much to our own demise. So, I guess I’ll leave this thread with the knowledge, that we are truly ignorant, we have seen numerous atrocities throughout history, evidence of man’s inhumanity to man, and yet we choose to NOT learn from these examples.
It is the little things in life that we overlook which make all the difference.
Peace
This opinion piece seems apropos.
Yes. But then, I grew up in America, so that’s probably not authentic enough for you.
So are we now supposed to head each post with race, religion and ethnicity?
–Sublight, French and disappointed with a lot of people around here.
Touche’, mon bear…
You raise a good point, and a fiasco that got as buried as could be here in the US. That was truly bizarre, and no one came away from that situation without a bad taste. IIRC, that was not long before/after the French nuclear tests, no? Oh, yeah, I forgot all about that little nuclear test tete-a-tete.
With all due respect, I think that France’s direct response to a request for nothing more than airspace clearance in the raid on Gadaffi’s compound, et al., is very germane to this discussion. It illustrates the desperate need of the French government to make their own distinct path through history.
Things like not wanting to be pushed around by the UN to stop their nuclear tests?
They want you to think they think different 
Is that necessarily a good thing?
-Rav
Wabbit and king of Spain,
I appreciate your points, but this is not literally about the phrase “cheese eating surrender monkeys”. It is about the attitude that people have towards France that goes unchallenged on these boards, and the double standard that creates. Its not literally about the phrase “cheese eating surrender monkeys”. that was only used as an example.
Exactly. If it were the occassional ribbing, then do you think we’d give a damn? Its the fact that France can’t even be mentioned without 20 posters declaring how they ain’t nothing but a bunch of cowards and y’all saved their asses during the war and they owe you for that and…
But frankly I agree with Fran’s assessment. I’ve demonstrated that France suffered a tragedy in WW2 on a scale that America can’t even imagine - they simply have never suffered anything like it themselves. If you want to carry on blithely making light of that and trivialising the blood and sacrifice of those people then you just go ahead.
pan
I’ve stayed out of this debate so far because I’m a bit undecided about whether the phrase in question betrays an underlying prejudice or is just a harmless quip. But I can’t let the above pass without comment. Are you seriously suggesting that, as an Irish person, I am disqualified from commenting on injustice or prejudice because of a conflict in which I have played no active part. Look at my posts on the Irish situation. I defy you to find any evidence of intolerance. In fact, I would suggest that Irish people are more qualified than most to preach tolerance.
As I have said previously, I’m not too exercised about the CESM thing but I am extremely bothered by any suggestion that Irish people cannot speak on intolerance (and the inherent implication that I, or Twisty or whoever are ourselves intolerant).
BTW, France is my favourite country on this planet and I love the French (who smile charmingly at my strangled attempts to speak their language).
Wars in which France has been on the winning side, fought valiently and with honor, but still needed entire continents worth of non-French soldiers and armaments in order to barely squeeze out a victory:
WW1
Wars in which the French were Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys:
Napoleonic Wars
The Franco/Prussian War
WW2
They can’t even give up properly, by undertaking a halfway decent de-colonization process, as witnessed by what happened in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam after they pulled out in the late-40s.
I give up.
Like the French 
In the Civil War the US casualties were ~620,000 soldiers. I don’t think this includes civilians. Their population was just over 31 million at the time. I think Americans can very well imagine what the French went through in spades.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/population1860.htm http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm
…well, you’ve been whooshed…
:rolleyes:
…do you think we didn’t know that?
We are talking about stereotypes here. The general stereotype of the French is that they are cowards and surrender at the first opportunity. THAT is what this thread is about. When that stereotype is repeated unchallenged, it “grows” to become a belief, and THAT is what is being shown here by the people that thinks it is “just a joke.”
…are Vietnam Veterans murderers?
…of course not, but back during the war that was how some people portrayed them, and didn’t it piss you off? I could argue that it was a valid comparison, I could post you website after website, cite after cite to prove the assertion that “Vietnam Veterans were murderers”, but all I would be doing was proving my “Stereotype” was valid…
…so why are people trying to “PROVE” the French were cowards? How did we go from criticising the stereotype and defending it’s use, to actually trying to prove the stereotype is TRUE? Are you nuts?
[BOLD] JohnT [/BOLD], how many wars in the last 100 years didn’t require the assistance of multi-national forces to achieve victory? Why is the United States trying to get a coalition to go into Iraq at the moment?
More importantly, why are you defending this stereotype? Do you guys really want open slather on stereotypes on this board? Or only the nations that are unlikely to post rebuttals on this board, because this is a “predominately” English-speaking site? I predict if we started using the “fat Americans” out of this thread, you would get an extremely strong response.
…and to those of you using the Simpsons defense, I say simply, the Simpsons is one of the most well developed, witty, funny, intelligent things ever to have existed. And those of you trying to emulate it’s classic brand of humour, ARE NOT.
No problem, most likely they’d be rude and just ignore me.
I wonder how many of you bring up Starvin’ Marvin whenever Ethiopia is mentioned?
Apparently Kabbes didn’t when he said that the Americans couldn’t possibly ever understand what the French went through in WW2. Explain how I was whooshed when all I was stating was that yes they could? :dubious: