Chess - training game (Glee v SiXSwordS)

[glee]

@SiXSwordS

In a more serious sense, I have to admit that I didn’t think I would get this far in the game. I wouldn’t be in this position if I hadn’t asked what to do.

Excellent.

@SiXSwordS

I think I should be developing my Rooks. I have seen really good chess games and I often have a hard time understanding what Masters are doing in Rook moves.

Yes indeed.
Beginners often get into trouble early and so don’t reach the sort of positions (like this game) where developing your Rooks is a thoughtful matter - not a panic reaction.
Take the position after 15. f2-f3. Your Rook on f8 is passive, while your Rook on a8 defends a7 (just in case!). You need to think where you would like both your Rooks. E.g. if you like the look of c8+d8 (the obvious choice!), then playing Rf8-c8 first would block the other Rook.

@SiXSwordS

I think it would be good to counter your Rook on the d-file and put some pressure on your dark square bishop. I think moving the a-file Rook would interfere with the movement of the other Rook, so…

All correct.
Incidentally, to be precise, I would say that Rf8-d8 ‘attacks’ my Bishop on d4. There’s no ‘pressure’ for two reasons:

• the Bishop can simply move away. ‘Pressure’ is normally on a pawn or pinned piece that remains a target
• even if I allow Rd8xd4, Bd3xh7+ Kg8xh7 Rd1xd4 means I’m only slightly behind in material (I value a Bishop and Knight as worth a Rook and 1.5 pawns i.e. more than 1 but less than 2).

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5**

(If 16. … Be7-c5+ 17. Kg1-f1)

It may seem that White only has a slight edge. This is actually true!
I do have 3 small advantages:

• better control of the centre (e4, d4, e5, d5)
• quicker route for my King to get active (g1-f2-e3)
• Queenside pawn majority (the side furthest from the castled Kings)

The good thing for me is that Black has no threats and that my advantages are permanent (at least for the next few moves).

(Oh, and in a game, I would have spent only a few minutes reaching this position, since I’ve played stuff like this a lot.
My opponent would usually have used a fair amount of time, especially after 10. Nf3-e5…)

[SiXSwordS]

@glee

Beginners often get into trouble early and so don’t reach the sort of positions (like this game) where developing your Rooks is a thoughtful matter - not a panic reaction.

I’m definitely having a hard time with this position. I’m not sure if it’s just that I’m not familiar with this type of position (as you mentioned in discussing the Rs) or if I’m in a very bad situation that has yet to get to the point where I’m down in material or in an indefensible position.

if you like the look of c8+d8 (the obvious choice!), then playing Rf8-c8 first would block the other Rook.

I hate obvious! Why is that obvious again? (I’m assuming by c8+d8 you mean having one R in each spot…)

The good thing for me is that Black has no threats

You’re telling me!
I don’t think I can do much on the Q-side. I can move the R to c8, and maybe I should, but I admit I would be doing it because you said that it was obvious.

(Oh, and in a game, I would have spent only a few minutes reaching this position, since I’ve played stuff like this a lot.
My opponent would usually have used a fair amount of time, especially after 10. Nf3-e5…)

Out-of-curiosity, when you say “stuff like this,” what is your general description of the “stuff” you did?

The current position is the one I’ve spent the most time thinking about, but I’m sure in a timed game I would have lost quickly. I have tried different approaches to play faster, but I’ve always ended up thinking that I need to be better overall before I can increase my speed.
I’ve only come up with one move on my own and it reeks of desperation. As I mentioned, I saw a puzzle with a similar position (by my analysis :dubious:) and Black had moved h6. I would like to have some “luft” for my K, but I don’t see h6 helping to make it more active.

I thought of g6, to block out the potential check from the B and to free the N for other duty. It looks ridiculous to trade your Bishop for a pawn on g7, but I would expose my King by taking back…

…at what point does this become me watching a game you’re playing against yourself?

For my use: Slow computer warning.

[glee]

My comments in red to save space…

@SiXSwordS

I’m definitely having a hard time with this position. I’m not sure if it’s just that I’m not familiar with this type of position (as you mentioned in discussing the Rs) or if I’m in a very bad situation that has yet to get to the point where I’m down in material or in an indefensible position.

That’s very interesting, because I would really enjoy playing either side here.
It’s my kind of position, where you ‘build up steadily’. There are no obvious threats, so ‘positional understanding’ really matters.
White has a slight edge here, no more. However he does have a plan (to prepare for an ending and advance his pawns on the Queenside).

I hate obvious! Why is that obvious again? (I’m assuming by c8+d8 you mean having one R in each spot…)

Yes, sorry for calling it ‘obvious’. :o
Based on my decades of experience, plus familiarity with this sort of position, I ‘feel’ one Black Rook belongs on c8 and the other on d8. It’s hard to explain, but ‘that’s where the action will be for Rooks’. (My second choice would be Black Rooks on d8+d7.)
This illustrates one important difference between newbies and experienced players. So many things (like this Rook placement) are second-nature to the experienced player…

I don’t think I can do much on the Q-side. I can move the R to c8, and maybe I should, but I admit I would be doing it because you said that it was obvious.

Well, let the game develop and then see if my intuition was correct…

Out-of-curiosity, when you say “stuff like this,” what is your general description of the “stuff” you did?

1. Getting out the opening safely (e.g. avoiding opponent’s pet lines)
2. Reaching a middlegame position that I both like and understand
3. Unsettling my opponent by not giving him anything obvious to defend against (many players want to be active)
4. Taking less time than my opponent (which gives him less time for the rest of the game, plus the worrying feeling that I know exactly what’s happening )

The current position is the one I’ve spent the most time thinking about, but I’m sure in a timed game I would have lost quickly. I have tried different approaches to play faster, but I’ve always ended up thinking that I need to be better overall before I can increase my speed.

It’s good that you are thinking hard and I trust my comments are helping. Playing more chess, like a lot of stuff, increases both your analytical ability and your confidence.
As Gary Player said “The more I practise, the luckier I get!”

I’ve only come up with one move on my own and it reeks of desperation. As I mentioned, I saw a puzzle with a similar position (by my analysis :dubious:) and Black had moved h6. I would like to have some “luft” for my K, but I don’t see h6 helping to make it more active.

I thought of g6, to block out the potential check from the B and to free the N for other duty. It looks ridiculous to trade your Bishop for a pawn on g7, but I would expose my King by taking back…

g7-g6 is a ‘harmless’ move. I would never consider Be5xg7 Kg8xg7 as it loses a piece (and the game). There’s no followup attack (especially with the Queen missing). But the fact that you are worried about it shows that chess is a difficult game and explains why players run out of time - they are analysing too many unthinkable moves.
I would be mildly pleased in a game if g7-g6 was played, as it would show Black had no plan and was just letting me improve my position. (No offence intended - I’ve beaten many players rated 2000 with the same scenario.)

…at what point does this become me watching a game you’re playing against yourself?

If I give you too much information, including move suggestions.

[DSYoungEsq]

Not to interrupt, but a helpful thought, SiXSwordS. Let me digress a bit to make the point.

Back in the day I played tournament chess (Northern California was very active with tournaments in the early to mid 80s), I had a game one day against a player rated higher than me. It was a Sunday morning, first round of the day, third round of the four-round tournament, which I often thought of as crucial, because it could make or break your possibility of placing high. The player I was playing was someone I knew, having watched him in a number of tournaments in the area. Normally, I would have been nervous playing him, second guessing myself, etc. On top of this, he took me into uncharted territory right off the bat, playing something very unusual as Black. This, of course, forced me to think, using up time on the clock, while he did what glee would be doing here, making moves from his stock repertoire taking little or no time.

Fortunately for me, the previous night I had been in the hospital passing a kidney stone. As part of the treatment, I had received some particularly strong pain-killers and muscle relaxants. This had the effect of relaxing me substantially, taking away almost all my normal anxiety while playing. I was unbothered by the unusual opening. I analyzed the positions without my usual backtracking and re-analyzing. I got courageous and pressed the attack. By about move 40, I was in a clearly winning position (which was good, because at that point the time control moved to the second setting).

Sadly, of course, the story concludes less well than it should have. The meds wore off, the anxiety arrived, and the winning position devolved into a long draw, in large part because of poor endgame play on my part.

But here is the point: by not worrying about losing the game, I ended up giving myself a better chance.

Here, you have a training game. Your goal isn’t to win. Your goal is to learn. As Ms. Frizzle says on “Magic School Bus,” get messy! Try something. See how it works. You aren’t trying to play the perfect game, you are trying to find out how to think about the game. End your anxiety and play what you want to play, offering your thinking in the process. Let glee analyze your thoughts to show you where you might have been thinking sloppily. Read what glee says about his thoughts, to learn how to think about chess better. That will make it easier for you to play this game.

[SiXSwordS]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7**

[glee]

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7

Black’s Nf6-d7 challenges the well-placed White Bishop. A useful idea is that in a quiet position (i.e. where there are no immediate threats), try to exchange any well-placed opposition piece. Whether that piece retreats or exchanges, you have improved your position a bit.

White’s Be5-c7 is a little crafty (though I say so myself ). The Bishop had to move away (If instead 17. f4? Nd7xe5 18. f4xe5 Be7-c5+ 19. Kg1-f1 Bc5-d4 wins the e-pawn for Black - for it 20. Rd1-e1? Bd4xc3 wins the Bishop on d3), but takes the opportunity to disturb the Black Rooks.
Black had a pleasant little set-up prepared with his Rooks arriving on d8 and c8. Now he has to lose time, because if 17. … Rd8-c8 18. Bc7-g3, then the ‘wrong’ Rook is on c8, while if 17. … Rd8-e8, the Rook will later lose a move getting back to d8.

It’s worth studying this small but useful gain of time:

• White has to retreat the Bishop (preferably to g3) and loses a move going via c7
• Black loses one move saving the Rook on d8 … and then loses another move putting the Rook back on d8 later

[SiXSwordS]

What would your response have been to 16. …Ra8-c8?

[glee]

@SiXSwordS

What would your response have been to 16. …Ra8-c8?

17. Kg1-f2

White is gradually building up and leaving Black no ‘clues’ what to do.

[SiXSwordS]

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 (yes?)

[SiXSwordS]

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8

[glee]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8
19. Bd3-e4**

a) SiXSwordS, thanks for saving time with 17. … Rd8-c8 18. Bc7-g3
b) If I keep playing Bc7 and SiXSwordS keeps replying Rc8 etc, then after the exact same position (including whose move it is) occurs 3 times, the player to move can claim a draw by repetition
c) if 19. … Bc6xe4 20. Nc3xe4
d) it may seem as if White has little advantage (material level, no threats). That is true! I am putting my trust in my slightly more active pieces (including the King) and my Queenside pawn majority. (This result - from my point of view- is either going to be an ignominious draw :eek: or a masterful conjuring trick as I win )

[SiXSwordS]

I hope it wasn’t rude to write out your moves that way. I reread your comments and you didn’t say you would move Bg3, you said preferably to g3.

Sorry for being presumptuous, I should have asked if that was ok before posting the moves.

[SiXSwordS]

@glee

a) SiXSwordS, thanks for saving time with 17. … Rd8-c8 18. Bc7-g3

I must have missed this when I posted earlier.

(This result - from my point of view- is either going to be an ignominious draw :eek: or a masterful conjuring trick as I win )

I’ve seen chess puzzles that are “white to move and draw” and I’ve always had difficulty with them. It seems like such an abstract objective.

From a strictly objective analysis – pretend you were playing Black against a computer – is there any chance for Black to win? Or is this more psychological chess? (Freud to Skinner’s premise 4.)

[SiXSwordS]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8
19. Bd3-e4 Ra8-c8**

…it’s pretty obvious if you think about it.

was the best smiley I could find to indicate extreme facetiousness. In a lot of ways I think BxB is the “obvious” move.

[SiXSwordS]

Slow Loading

[glee]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8
19. Bd3-e4 Ra8-c8
20. Be4xc6**

If 20. … Rc8xc6 21. Rd1-d3.

(Now if 21. … Rc6xc4, then 22. Ra1-d1 wins a piece because the Knight on d7 is pinned against the Rook on d8. )

At first I was planning 21. b2-b3, but then I noticed 21. … Be7-f6 22. Rd1-d3 b6-b5! (exploiting a double pin ) is messy, e.g. 23. Ra1-d1 b5xc4 24. Rd3xd7 Rd8xd7 25. Rd1xd7 c4xb3 (not 25. … Bf6xc3?? 26. Rd7-d8 checkmate!), when Black has lots of threats.

[SiXSwordS]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8
19. Bd3-e4 Ra8-c8
20. Be4xc6 Rc8xc6
21. Rd1-d3 Nd7-c5**

gulp

[glee]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8
19. Bd3-e4 Ra8-c8
20. Be4xc6 Rc8xc6
21. Rd1-d3 Nd7-c5
22. Rd3xd8+**

If 22. … Be7xd8 23. Ra1-d1

Black just has to avoid ‘back rank mates’ e.g. 23. … Bd8-c7?? 24. Bg3xc7 Rc6xc7 25. Rd1-d8 checkmate.
It’s true that 16. … g7-g6 (considered earlier) would now be stopping these mates. But Black played an active move instead.
This sort of thing shows that time matters in chess (and that you usually can’t do everything you want).

[SiXSwordS]

**Glee SiXSwordS

1. e2-e4 c7-c5
2. c2-c3 d7-d5
3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5
4. d2-d4 e7-e6
5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7
6. Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6
7. OO OO
8. Be3 b6
9. c3-c4 Qd5-Qh5
10. Nf3-e5 Qh5xd1
11. Rf1xd1 c5xd4
12. Be3xd4 Bc8-b7
13. Nb1-c3 Nb8-c6
14. Ne5xc6 Bb7xc6
15. f2-f3 Rf8-d8
16. Bd4-e5 Nf6-d7
17. Be5-c7 Rd8-c8
18. Bc7-g3 Rc8-d8
19. Bd3-e4 Ra8-c8
20. Be4xc6 Rc8xc6
21. Rd1-d3 Nd7-c5
22. Rd3xd8+ Be7xd8
23. Ra1-d1 Bd8-e7**

[SiXSwordS]

Gonads Ill, Ow