Child behaviour problem - please help!

[Annie-Xmas]

Your child says his eyes “water easy.” That doesn’t explain or justify the whole temper tantum bit with the silverwear, pounding and breaking the nacho chips. I would say “When your eyes water, put you head down on the table and be really quiet until they stop. You can control yourself and don’t ruin it for everyone else.” Do this when he is not having a temper tantum, and remind him when he is.

ETA: You could have also made a big deal out of the red straws. “Wow. Those red straws are really really cool. I like them better than a silly old licorice straw. You don’t want them? Well, can I have one?” At that point, he will think he has got something really cool.

[Marienee]

@calm kiwi

Children are not stupid…in fact they are the opposite, they use the few skills they have gained that work on the people closest to them to the BEST of their advantage.

Your child has learned that mum and dad feel VERY bad about seperating and that because everything is not as it should be, mum and dad will give in to almost everything…

Yeah, except for one thing. This kid got offered what he “wanted” and still could not get it under control. Your basic ruthless little power monger turns it off when he wins. This kid got nothing concrete as a result of his behavior; even when they gave in he kept going. This suggests that either 1) they are offering the wrong things; or 2) he really is overwhelmed, on regular basis.

In the first case, what he wants and needs is not attention, as he got that, too. I think he has himself said what he wants. He wants and needs to be able to stop behaving in a particular way even when his feelings are overwhelming. This is an important skill and he is asking for help.

Which brings us to the second case – being overwhelmed once a day is very often for a seven year old. So something is going on which is beyond his ability to handle on an ongoing basis. My educated guess is that this has something to do with the family dynamic, though it can be, for instance, bullying at school. Given the pattern of him asking for what he needs and his parents overwhelming him with offers of almost everything else though, my money’s on something at home.

Usually it turns out to be something the child feels unable or not permitted to articulate and often it turns out to be (from an adult perspective) quite trivial. But the power of the unspoken/unspeakable is very great for a child who has barely achieved the age of reason.

[Marienee]

@Annie-Xmas

Your child says his eyes “water easy.” That doesn’t explain or justify the whole temper tantum bit with the silverwear, pounding and breaking the nacho chips. I would say “When your eyes water, put you head down on the table and be really quiet until they stop. You can control yourself and don’t ruin it for everyone else.” Do this when he is not having a temper tantum, and remind him when he is.

Yes, this. Also talking with him about helping him to control his own behavior and asking him what he thinks will help at a time when he is not worked up. Breathing exercises, a quick change of scene, whatever. He has said physical contact doesn’t help, with some kids it does. I knew a kid who needed a run around the parking lot.

Also stories about other people, famous, family, or fictitious, who had a similar problem help loads – seven year old boys are not noted for their high comfort level with self reflection, snort. talking bout other people takes the pressure off and also allows the information to trickle in that he is not the only one ever.

[overlyverbose]

@featherlou

ETA: I also wanted to say be careful if you go to any child therapists. Don’t let them automatically put your child on medications when all he might need is firmer discipline. I can just see them diagnosing him with ADD, ADHD, autistic spectrum, and depression already. (Which is not to say he has these things, just that when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.)

I think this is an excellent point. I’d definitely be leery of anyone wanting to give him meds without extensive evaluation - behavior isn’t always something that can be fixed with a pill, and it sounds like the kid is really being affected by the separation and lack of discipline. Perhaps the parents feel guilty about the separation and are therefore not disciplining?

Regardless, kids do need very clear limits and I’m surprised as well that a 7-year-old kid would be throwing temper tantrums still especially over candy. Yes, the parents should reinforce the idea that they love him unconditionally and perhaps spend more time with him, either one on one or together (as long as it’s not strained). However, they also need to take immediate and decisive action when they sense a temper tantrum brewing.

Also, the parents should reconsider taking him to a nice sit-down restaurant that will require the kid to sit still for a long period of time if he’s already had to do so for a long communion. That sounds like it’s setting him up for failure.

It’s also helpful to help the kid communicate his feelings. If he’s tired and irritable and can let his parents know, it could avoid a lot of tears.

Granted, I’ve only got the one 2-year-old boy. But as soon as he even starts whining in public, we make it very clear that if he needs help or wants something, he won’t get it unless he tells us because we can’t understand him or help him when he’s whining. If the whining continues, he gets a calm but firmly-worded warning. If the whining escalates, we leave. If we have to leave, when he’s calmed down, we talk about it. “I know you’re mad that we left, but you got very upset and wouldn’t let us help you. If you can’t tell us what you want, we can’t help you. If you’re tired or need help, you need to let us know.” He’s too young to really talk about his feelings now, but we’re hoping this will help him in the future. The immediate reaction has already helped - he knows when we say we’re going to do something, we mean it. If he still loses control, it’s usually because he’s tired or not feeling well.

The best part is that we don’t have to scream or yell - just tell him in a calm, firm voice that if he does A, B will result. It usually works.

[D_Odds]

@overlyverbose

The best part is that we don’t have to scream or yell - just tell him in a calm, firm voice that if he does A, B will result. It usually works.

This, I learned the hard way, is what separates Oppositionally Defiant Disorder sufferers from normal kids. It does not work. As a parent, I was left in the ‘why isn’t it working this time when it worked before’ mode. When ODD is in meltdown, there is no logic. The ‘trick’ is to teach the child how to recognize a meltdown before it occurs, and to develop tools to prevent the meltdown. Went not in meltdown, and just being a normal stubborn PITA, it works.

I’ve literally been there and done that, and have the scars to show.

[solkoe]

@Marienee

I don’t know that the OP is really in this group, obviously. But yes, the heart breaker when that is the case is that almost invariably the child is emotionally the strongest member of the family – too sane, in fact, to live with (or rationalize) an insane situation. So the parents may in that sense be proud of the child.

Only, if this is the case, that child does not remain the strongest for long, it is simply too much to ask. Even when the child volunteers for the duty as it were.

Our relationship is obviously strained in the household. It has been for ten years. At least were not fighting anymore. One big reason for the end of our marriage is that we want our children to know what a loving relationship is like They haven’t seen it with this marriage.
Our youngest is fine. He’s great. He gets whinny usually because he’s tired but he doesn’t have tantrums. Why one and not the other?

[solkoe]

@Annie-Xmas

ETA: You could have also made a big deal out of the red straws. “Wow. Those red straws are really really cool. I like them better than a silly old licorice straw. You don’t want them? Well, can I have one?” At that point, he will think he has got something really cool.

Right. I thought about that one. I pumped the licorice straw a bit when he was ordering and I asked the waiter where the straw was when the drink came.
In the end, there was nothing wrong with what I did. It was the way he handled it. Making a big deal out of the red straws would not have helped, after all, he’s seven not three.

BTW, not that it matters but it is not our practice to give into whining. I suppose all parents do it to some extent, some more than others.
The more I read, the more I like the “tough love” approach but I would like to talk to his teachers first.

[Keweenaw]

This book help change everything for my family.

Keep calm and be consistant. Kids thrive on consistancy and a routine.

[solkoe]

@Quartz

What changed? New teacher? Food full of additives? Did you move?

Nothing change. We thought his behaviour was getting better. The “time out” chair was being used less and less. We got lazy. We got used to it.
It’s not until several phone calls from school that it clicked that things were getting worse.

[solkoe]

@D_Odds

Sounds like what I went through with my son. MY son was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. The truth is that the child cannot control himself or herself; logic, discipline, etc. do not work for that reason. Spent a lot of time in therapy, both to help him and for us to learn the best coping techniques. No medication was necessary, though.

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_with_oppositional_defiant_disorder
http://www.klis.com/chandler/pamphlet/oddcd/oddcdpamphlet.htm
Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

I had never heard of it before talking with the child psychologist. Like most others, I thought discipline was the answer. It is - you have to be consistent. You must set the boundaries ahead of time, but as a parent you also need to understand that when the meltdown occurs, the child is powerless to stop it and no amount of logic and reasoning will penetrate.

Anyway, that was my story. It might be worth visiting a child psychologist yourself.

Thanks for the input but this does not fit my childs behaviour. I’m a teacher and I recognize the personality presented by the info.
For my son, it is a quiet sobbing sadness with him unable to express a deeper sorrow. It is not a kicking and screaming tantrum. After 1/2 an hour he returns to being a pleasant loving boy. He never wants to talk about the “incident”.

[Marienee]

@solkoe

Our relationship is obviously strained in the household. It has been for ten years. At least were not fighting anymore. One big reason for the end of our marriage is that we want our children to know what a loving relationship is like They haven’t seen it with this marriage.
Our youngest is fine. He’s great. He gets whinny usually because he’s tired but he doesn’t have tantrums. Why one and not the other?

This is a question whole textbooks, novels, reams of articles and several films could be (have been) written to answer. The answer is, nobody knows. I surely do not. Usually if there is a dynamic going on such as the one I describe the primitive answer is that the older child is protecting the younger one. Often the answer is that the whole family is joining in protecting the younger one. Which in the end does not do that child any favors either.

I am not trying to fault you; au contraire, I salute you to the extent you are even willing to consider the possibility. Most people have a long hard road to slog even to get to considering the possibility that this is not an individual problem but a problem occurring in a context, a dynamic which needs to be changed, not a person who needs to be fixed.

[emmaliminal]

@calm kiwi

Agree on a standard of behaviour and don’t waiver from that, because of your seperation you want to make exceptions, DON’T. In times of emotional uncertainty children need real boundaries. … All children need clear, firm rules that they can not manipulate.

To expand on this theme – because of your separation you may feel as though you want to be more understanding of your kid, to be nicer. It might feel like not being firm is being nicer, but it isn’t. It might feel cruel in the moment, but being exactly as firm or stern as you have been in past, more stable times is the most caring thing you can do.

In my experience, seven-year-olds are starting a developmental stage where structure matters, more so than at most other ages. This is the age when learning the rules to the games you play with friends becomes important and brag-worthy. Kids learning music may start to like Bach and Mozart more than more free-form, modern composers. They have a hunger for order; order is a potent tool for making sense of the world. On some level, they appreciate and respect your rules and your enforcement of them even more than they want to get their own way about anything specific. (Not that their inner four-year-old wants you to find that out, of course.)

Very best wishes to you, your kid, and your household.

[emmaliminal]

@solkoe

…I’m a teacher…
…Our youngest is fine. He’s great. He gets whinny usually because he’s tired but he doesn’t have tantrums. Why one and not the other?

Oh, you’re a teacher – so probably you already know about the this-age-loves-order thing I’m trying to talk about. Maybe that’s why the one kid and not the other is having this trouble?

[WhyNot]

A book my mother, a sixth grade teacher, turned me onto: Parenting With Love and Logic

Changed our lives. Turned me AWAY from “tough love”, and into real love…and logic. It taught me how to stop making his problems my problems, which showed him that I thought he was smart enough, capable enough and strong enough to tackle things on his own. He lived up to that. And the greatest part is that the “love” part is no longer “tough”. When he messes up, I’m allowed to completely and utterly love him, without having to think up a punishment. The natural consequences are their own punishment, and my love is unreserved.

So it’s now my job to make sure that the *place *he’s at is appropriate to his behavior. So much easier than trying to make his behavior fit the place he’s at! I can’t change his behavior - but I can change his location! Of course, the practical upshot of all this is that HE changes his behavior, because he wants to influence his location.

Anyhow, I really recommend that book, for this and other issues. And, if you teach, you might also be interested in the book that got my mother interested in the first place: Teaching With Love and Logic. That book has her thirty 12 and 13 year olds eating out of her hand. Amazing stuff. (Only drawback is that, because she’s so good at classroom management, they now put all the behavior problems in her room. Makes for an interesting beginning of the school year before she civilizes them.)

[Anne_Neville]

@solkoe

He says that he cannot control himself and that his eyes “water easy”.
He has alway been sensitive

Some of us do cry easily- it’s very hard to hold back or stop those tears when they want to come. And if we do stop them, it’s much easier for them to get started up again. But we do have control over behaviors like banging utensils. Take a hard line on those things, but don’t punish him for tears.

[eleanorigby]

Let’s not mix things up too much. Even if said kid does have a behavior disorder or an anxiety disorder or whatever, it is still unacceptable to do what he did in a public restaurant. I’d say it’s unacceptable at home, too, but home seems a bit chaotic right now (not a criticism, just a statement).

He may well need some therapy, but he also needs firm, consistent limits. Disciplined discipline, if you will. Good luck.

[fessie]

solkoe, I find something about this really interesting.

Admittedly this is pushing my buttons, so dismiss me if you will, but I got to wondering what your story is. I couldn’t remember if you’ve talked about your kids before (although I think I remember this one, from when you and your wife split). Also, I wanted to verify that you’re male, which you are. You sound male to me, in your tone.

So I did a search on threads you’ve started and it’s really interesting to me. GQ after GQ after GQ after GQ. Lots and lots and lots of factual queries. On a range of subjects. Interesting stuff, lots of them.

But no “emotional” topics. At least none that you’ve started.

And here you are, faced with a son (whom you love, clearly) who is overwhelmed by his emotions.

I dunno, maybe you want to make this all about “behavior in a restaurant”, but I see (and again, I may be projecting, because you sound a LOT like my Mr. Spock father) two people on rather different wavelengths.

It sounds like your son needs to speak in the language of emotion because he experiences life in his feelings, and you don’t. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that it sounds like you may be very different people. Perhaps you are more similar to your younger son, the one who’s not struggling at the moment.

But this crisis your 7-yr-old is in, or this impasse, or whatever — this could become a wonderful opportunity for you two to forge new connections, for you to enter his world and speak a shared language. Perhaps there’s something here for you.

Or maybe not.
Just thought I’d offer my opinion, in case it helps.

FTR, I’m already being tutored by my 4-yr-old twins, both of whom have a better sense of fashion and makeup than I’ve ever known. They have quite a few opinions on how I should be dressing, these two.

[calm_kiwi]

@Marienee

Yeah, except for one thing. This kid got offered what he “wanted” and still could not get it under control. Your basic ruthless little power monger turns it off when he wins. This kid got nothing concrete as a result of his behavior; even when they gave in he kept going. This suggests that either 1) they are offering the wrong things; or 2) he really is overwhelmed, on regular basis.

In the first case, what he wants and needs is not attention, as he got that, too. I think he has himself said what he wants. He wants and needs to be able to stop behaving in a particular way even when his feelings are overwhelming. This is an important skill and he is asking for help…

I believe he didn’t get what he needed or wanted. It wasn’t some silly straw OR attention. He wanted to know that mum and dad were still in charge, he wanted to test how far mum and dad would let his hissy fit go, he wanted to know that someone would say STOP! Emotions can be scary and easily get out of control for those who are just learning how the world works. It is really important for someone to say STOP! After everyone has calmed down a cuddle and an acknowlegment of love is vital. But at some point an adult needs to say STOP, your behaviour is unaceptable!

@Marienee

Which brings us to the second case – being overwhelmed once a day is very often for a seven year old. So something is going on which is beyond his ability to handle on an ongoing basis. My educated guess is that this has something to do with the family dynamic, though it can be, for instance, bullying at school. Given the pattern of him asking for what he needs and his parents overwhelming him with offers of almost everything else though, my money’s on something at home.

Usually it turns out to be something the child feels unable or not permitted to articulate and often it turns out to be (from an adult perspective) quite trivial. But the power of the unspoken/unspeakable is very great for a child who has barely achieved the age of reason.

I believe you are right but I also believe the most common way children are overwhelmed is by having too much control. I am a parent who consults my child frequently, I believe it is important to offer children decisions “Shall we have broccoli or corn tonight?”, “Shall we watch show 1 or show 2 tonight?” but it is also VERY important to know that when I have made a decision it is final.

I believe children are overwhelmed when parents put to many decisions in their laps. Keep the decisions simple…peas or carrots? NOT mum or dad! Children can be incredibly able at expressing decisions, I’m not sure we always listen though. Some of us are busy pandering, other busy ignoring.

[Cat_Whisperer]

I was a sensitive child, and I’ve grown up into a sensitive adult, and I’m trying to think of what would have been ideal parenting for me at seven. Maybe it would help to sit him down and tell him that all the problems around him are not his to worry about. As a sensitive kid, he probably notices everything. As for consistency and routine, those are comforting as an adult, never mind as a kid.

[overlyverbose]

@D_Odds

This, I learned the hard way, is what separates Oppositionally Defiant Disorder sufferers from normal kids. It does not work. As a parent, I was left in the ‘why isn’t it working this time when it worked before’ mode. When ODD is in meltdown, there is no logic. The ‘trick’ is to teach the child how to recognize a meltdown before it occurs, and to develop tools to prevent the meltdown. Went not in meltdown, and just being a normal stubborn PITA, it works.

I’ve literally been there and done that, and have the scars to show.

That stinks. I did some research on ODD after you mentioned it. At first it sounded like normal defiant behavior. Then I read about how long it lasts, how intense it can get and it sounded scary and frustrating. Hats off to you for dealing with it.

I think that teaching all kids how to deal with their emotions and manage them so they don’t have a meltdown is important, regardless of whether they have ODD or not, but I can see that it would be even more crucial in those situations. Yikes.