Childrearing practices (semi-long and very confused)

as a parent, I plead with folks to remember that your 1/2 hour view on my child in the store is really not enough information for you to make an assessment.

Generally speaking, my son didn’t make scenes. One of the times we got nasty looks, he was screaming and disrobing in the store. What they couldn’t possibly have known was that we’d just been to the doctor’s, were filling a script for him, he was sick and had a painful procedure done and just wanted the irritated area to not have clothes rubbing up against it, and wanted to be home and feel better.

The other major time, he was 6. His dad and step mom had been arguing for months and (w/o my knowledge) when he was there, he’d hide under the bed, afraid. Then, the step mom left, and the next 10 times he’d go to his dads, he’d get there, and then call me first thing in the morning begging to come home again (his dad was very depressed, would alternate in crying jags or storming rages, and the 6 year old had a tough time coping with it). So, I’d pick him up and bring him home. But then Ben would go into this rages with me. I took him to a therapist who told me “it’s a GOOD sign that he feels safe enough with you to act out like this” and advised me to wait them out.

A few weeks later, things were better.

So, sometimes, when you’re thinking ‘geez, I’d never let my child act like that’, pause a moment and think perhaps you don’t have all the information.

I know, I probably have no business posting to this one, neither being a parent nor having any desire to be one, but I’m kind of surprised not to have heard from any other only children on this thread. I’m not sure if I grew up the way I did because I was an only child, because of my parents’ disciplinary decisions, because my mother stayed home with me, or what, but I too was a Good Child. Specifically, I had very few friends my age - not only was I an only child, but we lived way out in the country and the few friends I had were not in walking distance. So I saw them a lot, like any kid, but I still interacted most with my parents and their friends. It seems like most of the kids I knew as a child knew how to hang out with grown-ups, though, and that dosen’t seem to be the case now. Not just with small children, either - it seems like most of the middle and high schoolers I know have… reduced attention spans. (I’m sure there are exceptions - but I don’t seem to come into much contact with them.)

It seems like maybe fewer people expect children to be able to sit through a longish dinner at a decent restaurant and contribute to an adult conversation without monopolizing it if they have something to say.

Unlike some of you, I never felt threatened or overwhelmed or robbed of anything by my parents’ high expectations, and I always had better jobs and was more successful at them because of skills I picked up this way - how to be an active listener, how to make a conversation work, how to present yourself at an interview or dinner or cocktail party. Maybe this is because it was much easier for my parents to take along one child, because there was nobody for me to react against - I know how much harder it is for two children to behave, certainly.

What really distresses me, however, is that I see children all the time these days who aren’t just incapable of interacting with adults - they’re incapable of decent behavior at all. Children act up sometimes - fine. But if they can’t stop from running screaming around a restaurant while other people are trying to eat, that’s a problem. The parents always seem to either think it’s cute or have this strange bewildered “why don’t they listen?” look on their faces.

I’ve often wondered about it - are they afraid to damage their fragile little psyches? Afraid of producing “little adults” who don’t know how to be children, or who are afraid to have fun? It seems like there aren’t ever consequences for these children - the parents don’t count to three, they count one, two, two and three quarters, two and seven eigths… There’s a difference, to me, between not wanting to hurt your child and being terrified of providing consequences to actions. So what happens when the two and forty-nine fiftieths generation tries to get a job? And finds out that other people have no problem whatsoever in assigning consequences? I don’t understand it, and I sort of feel like I don’t have any business bitching about it, since I don’t have any children - but, then, it’s my dinner they’re interrupting and my cereal that’s now all over the grocery store floor.

Maybe there’s a fine line between respecting your children as people and letting them walk all over you and everybody else, but there’s definately a line, and disregarding it does your children an enormous disservice. Occaisional misbehavior is what children do - they aren’t adults, they can’t be expected to glide through life in bevhavioral perfection. Fine. A very young child can’t be expected to sit quietly all the way through a three hour dinner - but a teenager should be able to, and know that his or her conduct indicates respect or lack of respect for others. Kids are naturally selfish - that’s the nature of the beast. Respect is learned. Parents have to be the ones to teach it.

One thing to take into account is that children are developing very rapidly at those ages. What may be reasonable to expect from a 6 year old may be totally unreasonable to expect from a 3 year old. You have to progress and adapt as they go along but in general I agree that a wholesome discipline is good and makes for happier, better adjusted, kids.

But do not expect the impossible, 3 year olds just do not belong in some places and not too much should be expected at that age. They are kids.

You can see the same when training puppies. Before a certain age it is impossible. Then comes the perfect time and, if you do not do it then, it is almost impossible lateer.

Kids are all different.

I was a willful hellspawn as a small child. (Well, I was never really small, I got most of my growth right up front, even my teenage growth spurt was only a few inches. I was odd all over)

I’ll say it again. I was a willful hellspawn. Name it, I was horrible. I made babysitters cry and hide from me. (I’m serious. I was bad.) I broke furtiture. I through screaming fits. How do you disapline a small child insane with anger? You can barely haul them around and you are four times thier size, you don’t want to smack them around. (Spanking didn’t help, I didn’t care, it merely proved how stupid and wrong my advesary was.)

Not my parents fault. I was very smart and pretty frusterated with being alive. No outlet, a barely fucntional vocabulary, no way to express what I had going on. You’d get pretty pissed too. My parents were pretty good about it all in all. I’m also pretty sensitive, so while beating me would make me more defiant, saying “We’re very disapointed in you” when I was calmer would have me weeping for a week. So they were open and honest with me.

This did a couple of things. I understood what good behavior was and why I should do it. It also allowed me a space for intellegent discourse.
I feel my parents did a great job. I have no problems with authority, but I will always work things out on my own and stick to my own judgement. I could very easily have grown up a willful angry brat. (hush all of you. I’m a willful angry woman. It is an improvement) Lots of love, honesty, and attempts at understanding. I knew they would always be there to talk to and that they would help me find solutions to probelms and back me up on the solution I decided on. I would have gone nuts under a stricter rule.

My wife’s cousin recently moved down from Missouri, with her three kids, and I am now realizing what a well-behaved child my stepdaughter is. Yes, she is argumentative, whines sometimes, and is probably less well-behaved than the children in my family, but she usually knows when she’s getting close to being in trouble, does show us respect, and generally tries to win the approval of adults around her. The cousin’s kids are pretty horrible. She has a three year old who frequently throws terrible tantrums over stuff like being told ‘No’ or his mother leaving the room. While he’s standing there screaming and kicking things his mother will just stand there looking bewildered saying ‘What’s wrong? What do you want?’ The older daughters (5 and 6) make their wishes known by shouting them at an available adult, and try to bully everyone around them. My wife tried to give her parenting advice, and when she was staying with us I could actually see their behavior improving simply from a few days in a place where there are rules and they are enforced, but from what I heard things have deteriorated back to the way they were since they moved out.

This is pretty much the way my 5 yo niece acts. She tries to manipulate adults, but only gets away with it with my sister (and to a lesser extent, my b.i.l.). She really doesn’t seem like a happy child; she is very smart, but she cannot play by herself (she demands that always be an adult to play with her/watch her). My sister works long hours, and my b.i.l. stays home with the kids; could this be contributing to the way the 5 yo is acting?

robinh, we were not raised in a particularly strict household, but there was never a doubt that the parents were in control, and when my mom used THE VOICE OF MOM, we knew it was time to pack in the misbehavin’. I’m not sure where my sister is getting her doormat act from.

(Sorry if I’m hijacking your thread too much, TVeblen. Tell me to go start my own thread if I’m stepping on your toes too much, please :))

Being on the verge of parenthood myself, these questions are currently looming large in my mind.

Veb, you said you were soliciting opinions and I’ve never been accused of being short on those.

I really don’t see a problem with this. One could argue that the whole point of having children is to raise them to be responsible, respectful adults. This process begins the moment a toddler recognizes his parents.

Now, I’m not sure if there really IS a “right” and a “wrong” for raising kids. There are parenting methods that will achieve the above-stated result and those that won’t. Raising them with discipline and high expectations of decent behavior will have those results.

Raising them (or rather NOT raising them) by letting them just be themselves and wanting only to be their friend will result in an adult not unlike the “rich kid” you described - self absorbed, selfish, full of a sense of entitlement and willing to do whatever he feels like to get what he wants.

(Yes I do feel that too many parents think that the most important goal is to be their child’s friend, rather than their parent.)

I’m going to go on the assumption that the goal IS to create a well-adjusted adult.

Now there are extremes out there - discipline is good, but the “military-style” manner of home life like the kids in ‘The Sound of Music’ might be considered excessive.

I know he’s gotten a bit of flak, and I may, too, but I’m a follower of the John Rosemond philosophy of parenting. I’m really not sure how much trying to reason and rationalize with a child can ultimately be effective. If it works, that’s great; but kids aren’t really known for their open-minded reasoning skills. That’s why most of their arguements can be distilled down to “But I WANT it!!”

That’s why I intend to engage in firm, even-handed discipline. And discipline will take the form of loss of privelege(s). And it doesn’t have to be “fair” and the punishment doesn’t have to fit the infraction. (Punishments that are MORE severe than the infraction will make a stronger impression.)

But before I get entrenched in a flame war, let me say that my kid(s) will know that their father loves them. That is the tempering effect on discipline. Demonstrations of discipline without matching or exceeding demonstrations of love will result in a sullen, angry, frightened child. But full amounts of both love and discipline should result in a child becoming a well-adjusted, respectful and sensitive adult.

Hey, that’s what worked for me - And just look how great I turned out! :wink:

Tygr, I agree with you that children should be raised with discipline and love. In my mind, raising small children seems very similar to training a puppy. You must be firm and consistent with the puppy, not punish him when he is too young to understand why what he did is wrong, but don’t hesitate to correct him when he is old enough to learn, heap praise on him when he does what is expected of him, and always treat him with affection. A puppy is a pack animal, and needs to know that his master is the leader of his pack (I firmly believe that people who do not act like the pack leader for their dogs are making confused, unhappy dogs). I think small children need the same boundaries; they need the comfort of knowing that mommy and daddy set the rules of the house, what the rules are, and what is expected of them as the children. I think children that don’t have a clear idea of their boundaries are also confused and unhappy. Besides, how is a child supposed to rebel when you don’t give them anything to rebel against? :smiley:

Is it permissible for a mom to give a kid a swat to the seat if he or she gets way out of line in public? How about for a dad to do so? If you’re a parent, would you worry about someone interpreting this as child abuse and having you or your spouse arrested? Pertinent to your answers, what area of the country do you live in (or do you live abroad)?

An interesting OP. I always considered the OP’s parents approach to be the ideal, but took it for granted that almost no kids would ever really go along fully. The objective is to gradually influence the kids in a positive direction, so that as they mature they tend to mature along the right lines.

My general feeling is that parents should make as few rules as possible, but that those rules that they do make should be rigidly enforced. This would tend to give kids the maximum of freedom and discipline. Unfortunately, many parents do the exact opposite.

Get serious! (broad grin) The whole issue is so complex it’d be dang hard to even derail much. The insights given have been fascinating.
Ever notice when you start thinking hard about something, relevant stuff crops up everywhere? I’ve been reading Cyn’s Pit thread Heartles bitch or “normal” teen closely. Much condensed, her 15 yr. old daugher is pitching hell to get her tongue pierced–including yelling, “Fuck you” at her mother over the issue.
I’m just citing the thread as an example of my confusion. I simply can’t conceive of EVER shouting an obscenity at my parents–or uttering one in their presence, for that matter. Totally unthinkable, impossible.
It isn’t like we were the The Cleavers. My parents divorced when I was five, very messily and with real hatred. Toss in a few “teen” issues of the time like civil rights, Vietnam, rock, hair and skirt lengths, etc. So I do understand rebellion, angst, testing limits, etc.
What I don’t understand is where the lines are drawn now. Times change and maybe I’m blind to some subtle good in those changes. It’s just another example but yeah, I’m shocked that a teenager shouting obscenities at her mother isn’t enough right there to shock more people.
Then again maybe I morphed into a reactionary old poop and didn’t notice.
Veb