My wife wants to get a small tattoo of the Chinese character(s) for “Mother”. The problem is, there are many variants…
There is mu3. She really likes the simplicity of this single character. But does the character actually mean “mother,” or does it just mean “female”?
There is mu3 qin1. From looking at various web sites, this seems to be the most widely accepted version. (But it’s bulkier than what my wife would prefer.)
Then there’s ma1 ma1. This, like the English version, is based on the easy-for-infants-to-make sound, “ma ma”. But my wife never called her mother “ma” or “ma ma”, and would prefer “mother” to this. (Actually, she’d REALLY like just “mom,” there, but there doesn’t quite seem to be an equivalent to that sort of casual English term.)
Then there’s the whole other issue that I’ve seen brought up on some web sites, which is that creating a piece of art (wall hanging, tattoo) with just the word “mother” on it would seem to many Chinese speakers to be a very odd thing to do (i.e., something longer and more involved like “loving mother” or simply the person’s actual name would be more appropriate).
So my wife is trying to balance a whole bunch of things. She likes the look and compactness of mu3, but doesn’t want to look like a total idiot if it doesn’t actually mean what she thinks it’s supposed to mean. So mu3 qin1 would seem to be preference number 2. But she also is moderately concerned about the whole “appropriateness” of just putting the characters for “mother” on a tattoo by themselves; it’s not that she WON’T do it if Chinese speakers would think it was weird–she’d just like to know exactly how weird they would think it is (i.e., “that’s a little odd” vs. “that’s very odd” vs. “that doesn’t make any f***ing sense, you stupid American, please keep our writing off your body”).
The first one (mu3) is the original beautiful Chinese character for mother. It can mean “female”, but is NOT the character used to mark the women’s restroom. All Chinese people will recognize the character and know exactly what your wife “means” by wearing it.
The second uses the first one’s character and a second “unnecessary” character.
The third one is the “modern”, ugly simplified version of the character for Ma Ma which sounds like the English “Momma”. The Mainland Chinese government has pushed this simplified version of characters in schools and has managed to destroy the art that was an important part of the beauty of Chinese writing. Don’t use this one!
To someone that has not studied Chinese writing, the two characters might not seem that different, just a bunch of lines, but its like a fresh peach vs. a canned one, a live Christmas tree vs. a plastic one or a genuine Picasso vs. a forgery. A simplified Chinese character turns my stomach.
Mangosteen’s got the character right. But IMO it’s a bizarre thing to tattoo – in any language. As a Chinese speaker, my first thought was “That’s ridiculous.” As an English speaker, my second thought was “Does she have mommy issues?”
Sorry to be harsh, but there’s nothing magical about Chinese that makes a stupid tattoo not stupid.
The PRC government isn’t “pushing ugly versions” of the writing system on the populace. It’s pushing simplified characters. The idea is to make the written language easier to read and write. The Japanese government does the same thing, but with their own simplifications. You can read more at this Wiki page.
I would say go with muqin, but I do think its a quite odd tattoo.
I think tattooing any single word in Chinese is fairly odd. She might want to google “Chinese four character idioms” and find one that reminds her of her mother. The idioms are sometimes quite clever, but I can’t think of one directly relating to a mother. I think one of those would be a much better tattoo.
The characters are also used in Japan, but only the first one is normally used. However, just by itself, I believe Japanese would tend to think she is talking about herself as a mother rather than about her mother.
Japanese very rarely tattoo themselves with kanji (the characters) so no matter what she does, it won’t seem natural. However, unless you guys are planning to move to Asia, it shouldn’t be an issue.
Use the first one. It’s mother because if you rotate it 90 degrees, then you can see that it’s originally a pictogram of female breasts.
Muqin is a little weird in that it’s overkill. A rough equivalent is that “mu” is kinda like the latin root of the word, that every literate Chinese would understand. Whereas “muqin” is more like (I can’t think of a good equivalent since I don’t know latin) something more common. And “MaMa” is more informal or even baby talk.
Mangosteen - I’m with you that traditional characters look “nicer.” Then again, when you’re trying to raise literacy from about 5% to 80%, whatever works works. Certainly, I found it easier as a gweiloh to learn the simplified. Even in China these days, lots of people use the traditional characters for their name or company.
In modern usage, no one would use “mu” by itself to refer to one’s mother, unless they are trying to deliberately write in an archaic style. They would either use “mu qin” in formal situations, or “ma” / “ma ma” informally. 娘 (niang2) might also be used colloquially in some regions.
I’m not sure I agree. “Mu” is certainly commonly used, but usually not by itself as a noun. Typically it would be used in compound words, like in parents, or mother and son. It does mean mother, no dispute about that, but at least in mandarin you wouldn’t use it alone to refer to your mother.
I don’t understand what you’re saying, because if your issue is with simplified vs traditional, the qin1 is also simplified. Also, she could just use the traditional form of ma1 (never mind that its characters are “female” “horse”).
But I think ma1 is better than mu3, because it’s more personal. People would call their mother ma1, not mu3 and hardly mu3 qin1. (edit: I see a few people have pointed this out.)
mu3 seems more poetic to me. Maybe like tattooing “mater” instead of “mom.”
If your wife is interested in finding traditional 4 character idioms having to do with mothers or parents, I can help you. Who knew my traditional Chinese character classes would come in handy after high school?
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I agree with Mangosteen on this one. If it helps, the first character is the ordinary way to write mother in Japanese, so if you want to just say the tattoo is Japanese writing, you don’t have to worry about all the discussion about the Chinese alternatives and their nuances.
I also agree about the Communist simplified characters, but that’s a matter for another thread.
The other one, “ma1” (媽) is frequently a component of mild to severe curse words – ranging from “dammit” to the frankly gynecological, especially in local dialect. If you choose that one, make sure the tatooist doesn’t sneak in a few extra characters alongside.
Mu is a literary word. It makes sense for your purposes, but is a lot more formal than “Mom.” Ma or Mama is the closest equivalent to “Mom,” and is what most people would call their mom on a daily basis, even into adulthood. I agree that it isn’t the most poetic character in the world, though as a Chinese language learner, I’m all for simplifying whatever they can.
I like the idea of trying to find an appropriate idiom. Chinese language is all about context and flow, and a single character by itself feels a little incomplete and uncomfortable, like an unfinished thought.
I think of Chinese characters are being more like root words. Imagine seeing the word “tele” written someplace. You might recognize that it’s Greek in origins and means “distance”, but it would seem odd just hanging out there and not part of a compound word like telephone or television. But even more than words, Chinese wants phrases and sentences. Chinese characters naturally block up into complete thoughts.You don’t see a lot of characters alone outside of reference materials like flash cards or dictionaries (and even in flashcards, they usually give an example in a compound word). It’s hard to even say a noun or verb alone- you’d say “beautiful woman” rather than just “woman”, and you’d say “eat rice” rather than just plain “eat.” Chinese characters never want to be alone.
Idioms, on the other hand, are a very strong part of the Chinese language. In English, idioms are mixed up with cliches, unoriginal thought, and weak arguments. But in Chinese, idioms have a lot more heft and relevance. They are considered trump cards in debates and arguments, crystallized bits of wisdom that bring bits of eternal truths into daily life, among the most sophisticated and meaningful uses of languages, and generally a sign of education and wisdom. Using idioms well is considered a great skill and a mark of a cultured person.
Of course, people understand that your tattoo isn’t meant to be a great masterpiece of Chinese literature. Nothing you’ve proposed is offensive or bizarre.
Is this really the case – at least in your experience? I’m a little skeptical :dubious:
Granted I could see the Chinese placing a greater emphasis on tradition or “wisdom of the ancestors” or some such, but how much of that actually applies in the modern world – heavily influenced by foreign languages and ways of life – versus some idealized, romantic China?
In my life idioms have been marks of unoriginal thought, not skill or culture, and certainly not trump cards; they’re more sayings to be scoffed at and rebuffed with real-world examples rather than tidbits of infallibility. But I was raised in a clash of cultures and maybe things are different for the purer Chinese? If I remember correctly, you are/were a teacher in China, right?