Christian loyalty to the US

In My Humble Opinion
41

I think you are both over-simplifying. In neither case - secular liberals, or Christian “zionists” - is there a singular set of motives (indeed, I agree than in the US at least, the majority of secular liberals support Israel’s right to exist as a nation).

In the case of Christian “zionists”, while the classification itself suggests that they support Israel, they do not do so for monolithic reasons - some have millenial concerns just like you say (the so-called “dispensationalists”); others support Israel because of a more emotional connection to the ancient Biblical tales; others, because they feel that belief in those biblical tales implies belief in zionism; still others (and possibly a majority), for reasons somewhat similar to those of secular liberals who support Israel.

Now, I’m not a Christian American (far from it), but I do know a few. There is no need to straw-man their position, and claim that they all support Israel because of millenial concerns - that simply is not true. It is akin to those who claim that all “secular liberals” hate Israel - which is also not true. There are definitely some Christian zionists who support Israel because of the role Jews are supposed to play in millenial fantasy, and there are some secular liberals who hate Israel. Neither is the majority view - though it is very popular for people on either side of the cultural divide in the US to attribute either ‘dispensationalism’ or ‘hatred of Israel’ to their opponents – as this very thread attests.

Understanding the Evangelical Christian's Support for Israel | Opinion!

42

As one of the relatively few right wing Christians here, I don’t know how to answer the poll. I support Israel for a variety of reasons, some religious, some political, some out of philo-semitism. I also think the US is the greatest country that ever existed. But my loyalties are with God and not any country.
Astorian, because the US is such a christian country many Jewish people define themselves not by belief in the theology of Judaism but by being not Christian. To them being Jewish doesn’t mean keeping kosher or going to temple but not celebrating Christmas and not believing in Jesus. Thus they think it is possible to be a Jewish atheist but a Jewish Christian is a contradiction in terms. These people would rather Christians be against Israel than for it, even if that hurts Israel.

43

This isn’t the case. “Jewish athiests” do not define themselves as simply being ‘not Christian’, but as being, as it were, fully-fledged members of the Jewish ‘tribe’.

The rules for membership in the Jewish ‘tribe’ are relatively straightforward - you are a Jew if you were born a Jew, or if you take the formal steps to convert to Judaism; you cease to be a Jew if you deliberately convert to a religion incompatible with Judaism - otherwise, you remain a Jew. Belief or lack of belief in God does not affect membership (although the Jews who do believe may, depending on denomination, think you are a “bad Jew” if you don’t: athiest Jews generally do not accept that they are ‘bad Jews’ and instead emphasize the non-religious aspects of Judaism - Jewish humanism, tikkun olam, etc.).

That’s the ‘rules’.

Judaism is a very ‘rules’-oriented’ faith/identity. Unlike Christianity, which is, when it comes right down to it, ‘belief-oriented’. In my experience, Christians can never quite get their heads around the notion that a Jew can maintain lack of belief in any god, but cannot maintain an incompatible religious belief and remain a Jew. To a Jew it makes sense - that’s just ‘the rules’. Judaism isn’t simply a “religion” like (say) Episcopalianism, but what used to be described as a “nation” - that is, an identity. As long as a Jew accepts the ‘rules’, and are accepted by other Jews as doing so, they maintain that identity - if they fundamentally reject the ‘rules’, then they are outta the tribe. Converting to Christianity = outta the tribe.

Now, it is more or less hard-wired into Christianity not to accept this. Christianity is, in origin at least, a kind of rebellion against this sort of formalism. This is simply one of the ways in which Jews and Christians are fundamentally different.

44

I don’t think puddleglum was restricting the “Jewish = non-Christian” definition to just Jewish atheists. Because of the history of Jews in majority Christian countries, there is an element of it in the definition of many Jews.

I think part of the difficulty in understanding this is that Jewishness is defined both as a religion, and as an ethnicity. So an atheist Jew can be an ethnic Jew without the religious part - unless the religious part is believing in Jesus. Then the religious part does matter, and he can’t be a Jew.

Obviously Jewish people are under no obligation to define themselves and their religion/ethnicity to satisfy me, and, as I said, I suspect the history of persecutions and pogroms and etc. in Christian countries is what mostly underlies this notion of “anything is OK except becoming one of those who persecuted us”.

Regards,
Shodan

45

Again, not how it works.

Judaism is not an “ethnicity”, but a “tribe” or “nation” (the term “nation” is the one actually used in the Bible to describe Jews).

What’s the difference between a “tribe” or “nation” on the one hand and an “ethnicity” on the other?

Well, it is this: a “tribe” or “nation” is a group that, like a private club, is defined by rules of membership: whether you are ‘in’ or ‘out’ depends, not on what outsiders say, but on the rules that define the ‘tribe’.

An ‘ethnicity’, in contrast, is a more objective standard - reasonable people could disagree on what constitutes a given ethnicity, and those who are ‘in’ don’t have a particularly privileged position to argue about the criteria (is a person from Burma an “east asian”? What they have to say about it is not determinative).

In contrast, a “tribe” or “nation” (in the Biblical sense!) is something that, very expressly, defines its own membership - like (say) the Shriners. Non-Shriners do not get a say as to who is or is not a Shriner. Their opinions on the matter carry no weight. If they set up a group that calls themselves the “Shriners”, the people in the original group are right to be annoyed.

This is true whether the “tribe” is the Chippewa Cree, or the Jews (forget the ‘primitive’ connotations of the term “tribe” and think of it only in anthropological terms).

Judaism of course originated at a time when there was no notion of the seperation of religion from other spheres of activity. So the “rules” of belonging to the Jewish “tribe” include a religious dimension. The “rules” are simply silent on the notion of atheism (mainly, I suspect, because such a thing hardly existed at the time they were created - also because belief and the measuring of belief is not important in Judaism - actions are). They, however, expressly forbid and prohibit taking on a religion incompatible with Judaism.

Therefore, logically, an atheist is an acceptable Jew, while a Christian (or Muslim or Hindu) is not.

46

IOW Judaism is not a question of belief, except when it comes to belief in Jesus.

:shrugs:

Like I said, it doesn’t have to make sense to me - they can define the rules of their tribe however they like. Atheism isn’t inconsistent with Judaism just because. Christianity is, just because.

Regards,
Shodan

47

So, in your opinion, it would be okay for a Jew to believe in Vishnu? :confused:

Let me say it once again, because it is not sinking in: for the purposes of membership in the tribe, Judaism is okay with any belief, so long as it is not incompatible with the rules of Judaism.

Here, for example, is an article about how Chabad Jews - who are what you might call “fundamentalist” types, the Jewish version - are okay with Jews being into Buddhism - so long, of course, as they don’t actually worship idols.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/60122/jewish/Is-Buddhism-Kosher.htm

There is a whole world out there of people who are not Christians. Judaism is many things to many people, but one thing is absolutely clear: you can’t be a member of the tribe if you worship idols, or other gods. It doesn’t matter who those idols or other gods are.

That’s why ‘philosophical’ Buddhism isn’t a problem for even fundie Jews like Chabad types - it is, in fact, indifferent to gods, does not propose any new ones. In contrast, popular Buddhism - with the burning of incense before idols - is a problem.

Similarly, why is belief in Christianity a problem for a Jew? Because, in essence, Christianity is all about a man who is also a god - part of the Trinity. Therefore, a Jew can be a Buddhist (of a certain type), but not a Christian.

You don’t have to understand it - but from the tone of your replies, you are deliberately going out of your way not to understand, to make it ‘all about you’. It is not.

48

Look at it this way: if you’re sitting in the Red Sox bleachers, you can wear a Red Sox cap, or you can be hatless - either way’s fine. But you can’t sit in the Red Sox bleachers wearing a Yankees cap.

49

Not a great analogy, the unlike the Jews the hatred of Yankees is entirely justifiable.

50

It’s not my opinion we are talking about. If it were, it would not be okay for a Jew to be an atheist.

It is sinking in just fine. Judaism is okay with any belief, except the ones that they have ruled out.

It isn’t about me, as I said before, and I understand perfectly.

Jews (commonly) have decided “you don’t have to believe in some things but you can’t believe in Jesus, or you aren’t a Jew”. IOW there doesn’t have to be a “religious component” to one’s Judaism - you don’t have to believe in God - but if there is a religious component it can’t be the wrong one.

It doesn’t make sense to say “it is not faith-based, it’s rules-based” when one of the key rules is about faith.

I understand the rule perfectly. Jews can define themselves however they like, and it is no skin off my nose. But ISTM to be likely that the prohibition on Christianity but not on atheism is primarily a reaction to the historical experience of Jews in Europe.

Regards,
Shodan

51

It’s not about believing in Jesus, it’s about believing Jesus is the Lord and Savior and that kind of thing. And even then it’s not so well defined theologically since Hassidim are accepted and they’re a little free and loose with the First Commandment, as Jews were once upon a time as well.

52

Official Representative of the secular liberal goyim here. We don’t hate Israel passionately and we don’t root openly for Israel’s enemies. I think the idea of Israel being “washed into the sea” or whatever it is the PLO used to say (and possibly still says) is one of the most terrible things that could possibly happen.

We’re just concerned - some, of course, are very concerned - about how Israel treats Palestinians.

53

For those thinking it is ridiculous, I know people and have been taught from the pulpit (albeit not by own pastor) that the reason to support Israel is for Jesus to come back. Turn on TBN sometime, and you’ll hear it.

Now, in this scenario, it isnt’ about Israel ceasing to exist, so much as it as about Israel becoming the capital of the world from where Jesus himself rules. It is, however about religious Jews ceasing to exist (as they are currently defined), as the idea is that, once they see Jesus fulfill what the Messiah is supposed to do, they will accept Him.

I’ve also seen this argument for why it’s not okay to hate Jewish people, but it is okay to hate Muslims.

I hate to say it, but at times in my life, I bought into both of these ideas.

I guess, in a sense, my loyalty was to Israel at the time. But, then again, I’ve never felt particularly loyal to the U.S. I’ve always thought jingoistic patriotism is weird. I’ll defend my culture, some of which come from American values and stuff, but not my country, save in sports or some such where it’s just for fun.

Still, at no point did I support Israel in the sense of agreeing with everything they do. Does the OP’s friend support Israel in that sense?

54

I didn’t read the whole thread, so someone may have said this already.

My understanding is that the reason fundamentalist/evangelical Christians (like John Hagee) are so supportive of Israel is because in their belief system the Second Coming of Jesus cannot happen until all Jews are in Israel. So their fervor in this department is self-serving in the utmost and only incidentally supportive of actual Jews. That is, they support Israel, but not necessarily Jews outside of Israel. Some Jewish organizations have turned down sizable donations from these Christian groups because of the ambivalent message.

I am Jewish.

55

I know a ton of secular liberal goyim. They don’t hate Israel, passionately or any other way. They do hate oppression, though, and they hate it wherever it presents itself, including in Arab states, and including in Israel.

This is not a quality of secularism or non-Jewishness, but it is certainly at the heart of liberalism as I understand it.

As far as those rapturetarians who are breeding perfect red heifers or whatever, they have got to be a rather small sect of Christianity, even of rightwing American Protestantism. Don’t they want Jews to all return to Israel so they can bring on the Second Coming and be fried, while the Righteous are wafted to Paradise? Very weird shit, in my view.

56

Amen. They ARE creepy, like the Moonies. The Jews of Europe endured horrendous discrimination, torture, and death at the hands of these types for more than a thousand years. You see, in the Bible it says that the Jewish mob preferred to save the criminal Barabas instead Jesus, so the hatred of the Jewish people was baked into their religion. White, rightwing Christians hate almost everyone rightwingers in general hate, so they are actually more rightwing than Christian. Now they especially hate the Muslims, but that goes back to the Crusades when they invaded the Levant and murdered Muslims over a couple of centuries. That is down the memory hole of history, as you might expect. Of course, they murdered Jews there too, but that is buried even deeper.

In our day, Israel is the darling of the rightwing, even of fascists of various stripes. Their grandparents were gassing Jews all over Europe, but now they ardently hunt down “anti-Semites”, which is not true at all, since they still hate the Jews in their heart of hearts. What they DO do is hunt down those critical of the policies of the Israeli government, which REAL Christians deplore.

So yeah, creepy and slimy, full of hate for most of humanity. Truly disgusting people. You wouldn’t want your sister to marry one.

57

so it is a poor choice for a poll as I can see and have learned.
But I’ve gained a greater insight to realize his overwhelming support of Israel is based in his religious need for the second coming to occur.
Apparently, this isn’t unique to him and that many Christians share this view.

BTW. Is it okay to call him a Christian Zionist? I get the feeling that that might be an insult or social faux pas, which I don’t want to do. But it seems like a good description of him and in our subsequent discussions it would be easier to describe his views with this term. Yet, I don’t want to use the term if it is viewed as an insult to him.