Christian Music and Field Trips (Is this A-OK?)

Great Debates
21

Yeah, actually, I did. My feeling is that the ‘overzealous’ cause much more than half the problem, hence my quibble with your statements.

Possibly it’s localized, but very few of the non-Christians I know become terribly offended over run-of-the-mill Christian bigotry, much less Christians ‘freely expressing’ their religion on their own time, so to speak. If we did, we’d spend all of our time in a royal-blue four-door huff, due to the near-daily occurrence of same.

But on the rare occasions when we do get upset over something, quite often due to religion being inflicted on children, someone always complains that “the problem is that you’re just too easily offended”.

No, the problem is that you don’t have the only religion in the world and you don’t have a mandate to enforce it on everyone else, especially children!

This teacher was legally wrong and morally wrong to bring religion into a school event, and as a public school teacher she should have known better. Now, how wrong it was, whether or not it could or should be prosecuted, how damaging it might or might not be to the particular kids involved - those are all points that vary from situation to situation.

I just get tired of non-Christians being perpetually blamed for being prone to offense and called intolerant because they dislike being constantly proselytized. It’s especially annoying when the very Christians who usually place such blame are those who would be the first to raise an outcry if a non-Christian did any of the things they, as Christians, do as a matter of course many times a day. (Not placing you among that group, Scylla, just trying to explain why your statements raise my hackles a wee bit.)

22

Heaven forbid someone REALLY be offended and have to answer to Scylla as to whether they really should be or not… :rolleyes:

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, three weeks, one day, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 16 seconds.
8228 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,028.60.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 13 hours, 40 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

23

**

Why Satan, whatever do you mean?
redtail23:

I agree with you. Nothing would piss me off faster than some teacher using a school function to witness to my daughter.

What I think is both impossible and undesirable is to create a truly sterile and neutral setting. Part of who a teacher is is going to come through in the classroom. Such socialization and exposure to different viewpoints is inherently good IMHO. What’s wrong is when someone takes advantage of the situation, or does it deliberately.

24

Scylla: What brought it on is that you are, once again, trivializing soemthing which is considered by many to be a precious right in this country: freedom of - and from -religion. You’ve done it before, arguing yourself into a corner that the people who worry about these things are “overreacting,” “nit-picking” and dozens of other things which attempt to make light of a simple fact: Rights are being infringed upon, that IS a big deal, and people have a right to voice their opinion and do something about it whether you think it’s “not a big deal” or not.

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, three weeks, one day, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 24 seconds.
8230 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,028.87.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 13 hours, 50 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

25

Like others have said, it would depend on the station.
Was it just nice, normal, Christian hymns, like oh, How Great Thou Art and oh, maybe, Tis a Gift to Be Simple?

Or was it, Hellfire and brimstone style?

My father listens to Catholic litergy music because he LIKES the music. Like Gregorian chants. That’s all. It’s not about his faith.

Personally, she might just have had the station on, and forgot about it.

I mean, it would be the same if ANY of the stations she had on offended people, wouldn’t it? (If the teacher listened to Howard Stern, and someone really didn’t like Howard (like me), would that be wrong too?)

26

Satan:

Yes, I have certainly been unfair and unkind in the past. I don’t believe that I am doing so here.

I think the fact that a teacher would need to worry about what radio station they are playing in their own personal car while in an instance like this is ridiculous.

Part of that is because the overzealous take advantage of such opportunities to witness where it is not appropriate.

Another part is because some people are just looking for trouble.

It is unfortunate for the teacher and the students that something like this could become an issue, because the simple solution is as a teacher don’t participate because you might get in trouble.

Then everybody loses.

**

I don’t think so. Please show me how I trivialized it.

**

Does that mean that I’m doing it here?

**

Please explain to me in terms of the OP situation exactly what the big deal is. Whose rights are being infringed upon?

27

I don’t think playing Christian music on a field trip is as bad as trying to convert children, but it’s not very smart either, just as it would be unwise to play any other kind of religious music, radical protest songs, or gangster rap - there is a portion of the population who WILL be offended by it, you should know it, and you have no way of knowing who it might be.

28

[hijack] I don’t mean to get off the subject, but I would just like to ask KellyM to give some proof of this. If you can’t give sound evidence as to where you got this information, you really shouldn’t post it. [/hijack]

29

**

I disagree.

**

I think that you have not listened to Christian radio stations much. Please listen to one for an hour and tell me that there is not heavy-duty proselytizing going on.

Sorry you think it’s not a big deal. All you do is prove exactly what I said, you know. You are exactly “trivializing” something which may be a big deal to someone else.

**

Thank you again, for saying that when someone reacts to what you yourself said is “wrong” that those who react to it and possibly try and right the situation are also “wrong.”

We’ve been through this one before…

**

Or they can, you know, change the channel.

**

You did it in this very post, and you did it when you sxaid what prompted my initial reply:

This is EXACTLY you trivializing fundamental rights we have. This is you saying in the very post I am replying to, “Well, sure that’s bad, but those who react to it are bad too!” This is illogical, and as I said, there is nothing trivial about fundamental rights being encroached.

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, three weeks, one day, 20 hours, 21 minutes and 48 seconds.
8233 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,029.24.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

30

And here I agree with you. <gasp!>

For example, I think that teachers should be free to wear religious jewelry (provided they’re within the school dress policies in general). I think they should be able to carry their Bible, for that matter.

However, there IS a difference between having/wearing personal items and putting religious items on the wall, where they are subject to interpretation by kids as statements by authority. There IS a difference between personal items and subjecting kids to Christian broadcasting and/or other forms of proselytization.

But in this instance the teacher is functioning as an agent of the government, using her car as a gov’t vehicle, and the trip was a school function. As I said, prosecution is debatable, since attendance may or may not have been mandatory (I know that event attendance was mandatory for speech & debate class when I took it) and form of transport may or may not have been mandatory (I wasn’t given any choice of transport on school trips of any sort - you rode with the group if you were going at all).

If the situation were different, then I might agree with you. F’rinstance, the teachers around here often take their students out for pizza parties or some such when they’ve done well in class that semester. These are NOT school functions, they are NOT mandatory, they’re simply the teacher as an individual giving the kids a reward. Usually they don’t take responsibility for transportatation, but if a teacher gave a kid a ride to/from one of these, I probably wouldn’t have a problem with Christian music. The teacher is acting as an individual rather than gov’t agent, the event is not school-sponsored, and certainly not required. Completely different situation than the one PLG described.

Nitpicky? Perhaps, but these fine lines are what protect our civil rights. Would kids understand the difference? The ones I know would; they have no trouble understanding that teachers may ACT differently when they’re acting as individuals rather than being ‘Teacher’. Would it matter to the kids? For some, I think it would - most likely the ones who would be uncomfortable with Christian proselytizing.

Guinastasia:

  1. I was specifically addressing the situation of a public school teacher functioning as an agent of the gov’t. I assume that is not true of your father. If it is true, then the same thing would apply to him.

  2. Offensive material in general does not necessarily have the same protection that is given to the religious arena.

  3. If a teacher played Howard Stern in the car on a field trip, most Christians I know would demand that she be fired immediately for exposing their kids to such trash. Most parents I know would be extremely upset. Around here, I think it’s highly likely that the teacher would be severely reprimanded, at the very least.

31

**

As luck would have it, they are allowed on all counts, as are students.

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 3 minutes and 27 seconds.
8235 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,029.39.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 14 hours, 15 minutes.

David B used me as a cite!*

32

**

I don’t know if that’s the point. If the teacher was being compensated by the school for using her vehicle on the one hand she may not prudent in playing that music. If not, it’s her choice. Even if she is compensated, the question arises does the car become subject to SOCAS, or is it like her clothing which is personal property that she is allowed to wear in a school environment even though it contains religious symbolism.

What you seem to be ignoring, while accusing me of trivialization is that there is more than one person’s rights at stake here. Does the teacher have the right to practice her religion as she sees fit and listen to entertainment consumate with that religion within the confines of her own personal property?

**

So you are saying that I’m not entitled to an opinion? If I think that a complaint based on this particular incidence is trivial, that opinion is just as valid as the person who thinks it’s not.

**

It is not a trivialization any more than it is a trivialization of one’s religious beleifs to state that “Too many fundamenalists take advantage of innapropriate situations to witness.”

Neither is it a trivialization of free speech to say “Some people talk too much.”

**

It is illogical, and you might have a point except that I didn’t say that.
What you don’t seem to understand is that the teacher has rights to, and I’m not so sure that SOCAS means you get to tell her what radio station she can and can’t listen to in her own private vehicle. If the school was compensating her for this, you might have a point, but it still might fall into the same category as the clothes she wears.

The end result of this kind of thing, where a teacher might get into trouble for attempting to do a good job above and beyond the call of duty, is that it might become clear that it is in her best interests not to go the extra mile, and volunteer her personal services.

For fear of offending somebody it’s better not to do anything but what is required.

Imagine if a complaint was registered and the teacher was called to account for her personal taste and religious beleifs. I know what my answer would be, and I’d be pissed: “Fine. I will not drive the students. Get a bus. I have the right to listen to what I want in my own car.” If the school can’t afford the bus, then no more extracurricular activities.

33

I think we also need to get more specific. Was the teacher compensated, or was this volunteerism?

Was this a heavy duty preachy station, or just Christian music, like Winger and such (nobody should have to listen to Winger?)

Was your impression that the radio station choice was for entertainment, or was it to convey a religious message to you and the other students?

34

Let us reverse the situation. Say the teacher was playing a heavy-metal station- (with a Black Sabbath marathon), and a Christia student complaineg because “He was playing Satanist music”. What would we think then?

I would still say “Don’t make a mountain out of a molehill”

35

I honestly don’t know. I’m not sure how it all works out, though I’m sure she was compensated for it.

I’ve never listened to Winger, so I don’t know. Songs included “Crucification” “I SHould Have Been Praising You” “Bless me Christ” and on and on, you get the idea. They were NOT standard hymns (I would have actually enjoyed those a lot more) they were Poppy “I’m-So-Happy-To-Be-Save-You-Should-Be-Saved-Too” type of music.

I should state though, in all fairness, the music didn’t offend me, because I basically agree with the message, however, the Coach stated point-blank “We’re listening to this music. Sorry if you have a problem with it.” (In case you can’t pick it up, she wasn’t really that sorry) That’s what made me uncomfortable. What if Heather (The Pagan) and Alexis (The Athesist) was in the car? Would they be forced to put up with that music?

I’ve never listened to Black Sabbath, but I imagine I would be troubled if they songs included lyrics like “Thank you Our Dark Lord, Lucifer…” blah blah blah.

She made me listen to Dr. Laura once, and I was equally bothered. It was the first time I had ever heard her, and I did not appreciate the “preachy” tone, in the least. However, I didn’t have this board to come back to, and ask “Hey, was this appropriate?”

I discussed this whole situation with a fellow teammate, who did not attend the event with us due to other obligations, and he said pointblank “She had better turn that shit off around me, or I’ll call the Adminstation, the school board, and the ACLU, just on the principal of the thing.” FTR, he is Roman Catholic.

36

Well, if heavy metal music actually was Satanist music, you might have a point. If there was a station that actually played music exclusively promoting Satanism, I bet the Christian parents wouldn’t want their little nippers listening to it in their teacher’s car. If such a situation came up, what would you think then?

37

Hmmm…now that you’ve added more, it seems as if she was almost doing it, not to convert you, but more to annoy you, or be defiant.
I say complain the next time she does it.
Or, if you feel uncomfortable, just say you have a headache and would prefer no music.

38

Gaudere:

As a parent, my child would no longer attend classes or be involved in extracurricular activities with an acknowledged devil worshipper.

As an equal member of the US that person would have the same right to play what they wanted in their personal vehicle.

The only time a teacher would be obligated to censor himself would be with regards to obscenity i.e. corrupting a minor.

39

Scylla, I think that’s wrong (as in incorrect, not a moral judgment).

The teacher was not using her vehicle for personal business, but for school business. As a representative of the state government, she has an affirmative duty not to infringe on the rights of her students, who in addition to having those rights are in a subordinate position to her.

A teacher (rightly) could not wear a T-shirt that had “John 3:16” emblazoned on it, with or without text, while in school or on a school function (i.e., in her official capacity). That same teacher has every right to wear that shirt to a football game to which she takes students on purely a social basis.

40

So, like I asked earlier…no WWJD bracelet, or cross necklace in the car then? Or a pendant on the necklace that says “John:3:16” (or one of those tacky Fish symbols)? No rosary hanging from the rear view mirror? No St Christopher medal or statue in the car? How about Christian (or Jewish or Pagan or Wiccan etc…) themed static stickers on the windows?

If she picks up the girl with ashes on her forehead on Ash Wednesday?

Could said teacher be listening to a non-specifically Christian music station (say one of those oldies stations) in December that was playing lots of Christian themed carols?