Yesterday I went to a school-sponsored Speech tourney (I did pretty well too) and I rode with my coach. She is a Born Again Christian, and the whole way there, and all the way back she listened to KLOVE, the local Christian Radio station. So, I’m wondering, was it OK for her to do this? Or not? I’m not going to make a big stink out of it, or anything. I’m just curious.
That’s technically improper, since she was, at the time she decided to select that station, acting as an agent of the state government. If every student in the vehicle affirmatively consented to the choice of station without coercion, it might be ok; otherwise, it’s probably out.
I don’t guarantee that you could even get a declaratory judgment that this violates the Establishment Clause, though. The fact that it occured during a voluntary activity might change the character of the analysis. And I have too much of a headache to try to remember the Lemon analysis just now.
…and of course let’s hope the teacher was not wearing her WWJD bracelet in the car or a cross pendant on a necklace…or have a St. Christopher statue on the dashboard…or a rosary hanging from the rear view mirror…or have a copy of Christianity Today lying around in public view
and of course…avoid riding in the car during Christmas season…the time when religious themed music could turn up on just about any radio station
:rolleyes:
beagledave, I’m not pissed about it. I wasn’t even offended by it. It isn’t my music of preferance, and I felt it rather glurgey, and sickeningly sweet, but I was not upset. But reading this board has made me notice things like that. What would be a “violation of Civil rights”, etc etc. Like I said, I’m not going to take her to court or anything, I’m just curious. You know, we are on the Straight Dope Message Board, it’s cool to ask question, maybe start a lil bit of a debate. You don’t need to cop an attitude, or get sacastic.
Case in point, I have no intention of blowing up the moon but I read that column with extreme interest, because I was curious.
Well I didnt mean to offend you with my response…however since you posted this in GD instead of GQ, it seemed you were looking to debate the issue…and not just get a straight yes/no response…telling someone not to cop an attitude or be sarcastic in this particular forum is asking a bit much. 
Good point.
And you are right, I probably didn’t place this in the right forum. I didn’t give it much thought.
Pepper: Why were you riding with your coach? Is that the normal way you get to these things?
Yeah, since we’re in GD the question should be “Should this be illegal” and not “is this illegal”?
I’ve already opined on whether it is illegal. I’m personally not all that bothered by it and don’t think it should be illegal, especially since it sounds like pepper was the only passenger in the coach’s car. I’d be a bit more disturbed by it if they were riding in a bus with a bunch of kids.
And I have no problem at all with teachers wearing religious symbols or WWJD crap (although I think any ethical person would have a problem with buying WWJD crap consider that some of it is made in third world countries with child labor) as long as they don’t try to impose a religion on there students. Teachers have civil rights too, after all.
Dave, I was riding with the coach, along with my BF (he was judging), and two of my teammates. There was another car, that carried three more teammates. We do not have a large team, (Well we do, but few people go to these things) and we DEFINITELY don’t have the money for a bus. It’s like 200 dollars, or more.
I was the only one who would be bothered by the music anyway, (BF wasn’t paying attention), because the other two students in the car are also Born Again.
On a side note, the Coach disturbs me slightly. I walked into her class and noticed she was reading the Left Behind series, I commented on it. Something like, “Oh, whatcha reading?” and she said “Well, since we are covering Revelations in church this month, I thought I’d study it.” Which leads me to believe that the Left Behind series is used as some sort of Church Textbook. 
OK, here’s my take. You were riding in her car. She normally listens to that station. She probably never even thought to change it. If you didn’t ask her, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. (Though it could be argued that she should have known better, and putting you – the student – in the position of asking her – the teacher and coach – to change stations is inappropriate.)
And in this case I doubt there was any kind of motive that would apply to SOCAS. The radio station’s purpose was probably entertainment in nature, and any religious significance was secondary.
Plus, It is my opinion that there is something very wrong when we have to worry about this kind of thing.
You’re right, there is something wrong when we have to worry about it. So why do we have to worry about it? Because there are teachers who have pulled stunts like this (well, not precisely like this, but other things in trying to convert their students).
As I noted, I think it was just that the teacher happens to listen to that station. But it does bring up the question of where to draw the line. What if it was one of those evangelical stations where they spend half the time raging about how horrible evolution is? I was clicking through TV channels the other day and came on one preacher who was yelling about the evils of Dungeons & Dragons, and he probably has his own radio show.
Well, I think it was OK, as long as it was just music. Like David said “where to draw the line”, and I think as soon as they started with sermons & preaching (Heck- I don’t even listen to THAT), then it would be time to very gently (but firmly) object “Umm, Mrs…, some of the students might find that offensive…”
Look! I am completely in agreement on a religous subject with David B.! The Millenium is here!
Couple of questions.
Was there a bus taking students to this school sponsored event? Was this the only mode of transportation available to the students? Did she specifically ask you to ride with her? Did you voice any kind of objection to the musical selection? (God I’m a nosy bastard)
If she’s just an individual driving her own personal vehicle to an event, and was nice enough to give you a ride, then I see no problem. Hey, in my car you’d be subjected to my kind of music.
Now, if you feel you were somehow maneuvered or pressured into a situation where you were being preached to…
Uh, spooje, Pepperlandgirl already answered those questions.
D’oh!
I’m sure that’s half of it. The other half is that there’s too many people just walking around looking for excuses to be offended.
Is this illegal? Probably, technically, since it was a school-sponsored function and the teacher was acting as an agent of the school. But it would get very complicated since it was an extra-curricular activity, not required, in the teacher’s private property, etc etc etc.
Why are these things a problem? Because many fundamentalist and/or evangelical Christians DO NOT KNOW WHEN TO STOP. They can not comprehend that others do not share their views.
Was there a problem in this particular case? No - the teacher wasn’t being outrageously reprehensible, and PLG is mostly in accord with the religion being presented. Could this sort of thing be a problem? Yes. I wouldn’t want my Jewish kid friend to have to deal with this. She’s already feeling the pressures to conform (pre-adolescence, so fun!) and wouldn’t be AT ALL comfortable asking for a channel change, especially if there were other kids in the car.
Another example: A coworker has a child in public school. Her 11-year-old daughter came home from school the other day and asked her about Sodom and Gomorrah. Her after-school choir sponsor had been preaching, speaking in tongues, calling for repentance and declaiming on S&G - essentially conducting her own mini-revival during choir practice. The school can’t do anything, because this is an extracurricular activity which isn’t even school-sponsored - they just allow this teacher to use the space after school. (It’s not a religious choir, it’s just supposed to be an anti-violence outreach program to keep the kids busy & out of trouble after school.)
My coworker was outraged. Not because she’s ‘anti-Christian’ but because (in her words) this teacher had NO BUSINESS attempting to push ANY religion on her kids without her permission. Since she was reared Pentacostal and her kids have been to Pentacostal services, they fortunately weren’t unduly frightened. However, I know I would have been at that age - I’ve seen holy-rollers in action since then and they would have terrified me when I was in 6th grade.
Be that as it may, when my coworker discussed this problem with the teacher, the teacher COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THIS WAS A PROBLEM. Since she was only telling the truth, and since everyone agrees with the Bible, there shouldn’t be any difficulty with her actions. Even when my coworker presented it from the ‘well, I think they’re too young for some of the concepts you were pushing, and this is MY kid’, the teacher couldn’t see a problem. She did, eventually, agree to chill her act a bit; my coworker is waiting to see if she sticks to her word.
So while it may be true that there are “too many people just walking around looking for excuses to be offended”, it is undeniably true that there are inexcusably rude and arrogant people who jump at any chance to foist their religion on kids whenever possible. At least in my locale; YMMV.
Sorry if this sounds hostile, but there’s been a bit too much of this garbage going on around here (IRL, that is) of late for me to take it casually.
Not everybody who is made uncomfortable by Christian music or other religious references is oversensitive and looking for trouble. For a few years after my sister was murdered (when I was a few days from 13) religious music, preaching, and even religous imagery could bring me to tears - I was a ‘strong’ atheist at the time, my sister was fairly religious, religion always reminded me of the funeral, and I had some strong mixed emotions about it all.
During that time frame, I definitely would have politely asked that someone change the station, though even back then I had the sense not to tell religious people that you are an atheist. I would have been in a very uncomfortable situation had they refused or questioned why.
Y’all will notice I didn’t say everybody did this. I said it was half the problem, the other having being the overzealous pointed out by Brother B.