I don’t know what I’m letting myself in for, starting this thread. I know there are eight Christian proselytizers being held in Afghanistan, because it is illegal to proselytize there. My thinking is:
You must really, really feel strongly about spreading the Christian faith if you’re willing to go to a totalitarian country (how did they get there, anyway?) to do it.
Since you do feel that strongly, it must be in some way satisfying to you to be imprisoned for your beliefs.
Any native afghani who is converted by you, or even befriends you, will be executed by the regime. Do you think that Christianity is so important to their immortal souls that it’s better that they be converted and then immediately executed than that they remain muslim?
Now do you believe that the rest of the world isn’t America? Didn’t you see Midnight Express? Don’t you remember the American kid who got caned in Singapore?
The Taliban has said it won’t execute the Americans. Personally, I’m kind of glad they’re in prison. I wonder what they’ll have to say about their experiences when/if they’re released.
I think that promising the government of Afghanistan that you are there only to provide aid, and promising not to preach your religion, then secretly bringing in bibles and religius tracts translated into the native language is deceitful, and you deserve absolutely no sympathy.
IMHO, of course.
Rather than blame the Christian missionaries for the possible deaths of Christian converts in Afghanistan, I am inclined to blame the Taliban for making and enforcing such a barbarous law in the first place.
Is it wrong to break a law–and even to be deceitful about it–if that law is fundamentally unjust? What if it had been a secular relief group smuggling feminist tracts to Afghan women? Would you feel the same way?
It is wrong to destroy any chance in the future for others to come in, even if only to give aid. Ask the other groups in that country that are there to give aid honestly how they feel about those self-rightous “witnesses”. It was almost impossible to get the Afghani government to agree to let the Aid agencies in-now it truly is impossible.
You all speak as if these 8 individuals are guilty. Is this known to be true? Could they have been set up? I don’t put a whole lot of faith in the Afghani rules of law and evidence at this point in time.
I’ll see if I can track down a cite on line, but I recall reading it in one of our local newspapers (two of them are actually Australian, not American, and the case has been reported here).
"Now do you believe that the rest of the world isn’t America? Didn’t you see Midnight Express?
Don’t you remember the American kid who got caned in Singapore? "
Yeah, do you remember the guy who blew up that bldg in Oklahoma? TimothY? He was a Christian, right?
I hope the info is more reliable than what gets published in the newspaper. Now, I’m fully ready to believe that some people are sooo stupid as to try to proselytize in that situation, but I’m not prepared to take the Taliban’s word as gospel (and yes, I appreciate the irony).
Regarding Midnight Express, etc., my point was that it is foolhardy for Americans to wrap themselves in the warm, protective mantle of Being An American and go to other countries behaving accordingly. I’m hardly trying to say that Christians and/or Americans have never behaved badly.
Here’s a short list I thought up of Rules for Suburban American Kids setting off to See the World:
Don’t take a gun to the Philippines.
Don’t sell drugs in Turkey.
Don’t preach Christianity in Afghanistan. I wouldn’t try it in Iran, either.
Czarcasm, you seriously think that the Taliban was right to do this? Gee, then let’s establish the Czarcasm as the religion in America. No other religion must be presented in this country other than that of Czrcasm.
I have posted in another thread why the death sentence for apostacy is baseless, unjustifiable, and wrong in Islam.
Frankly, I doubt the accused are really “guilty” anyway. I think it’s more likely they’re being railroaded because the Taliban have an extreme ATTITUDE PROBLEM about foreigners (about all non-Taliban, for that matter). Just recently an elderly American lady who was providing humanitarian aid to widows—had been for several years—was first jailed and then expelled from the country. For no reason. Or for no reason other than reminding women that they have rights in Islam too.
So far the “evidence” I heard against the alleged missionaries was that they had a tape in Pashto of the Cain & Abel story. Duhhh, the same story is in the Qur’an, too, numskulls (5:30-34). These guys can’t even handle their own Islam correctly, they’re so out of whack with reality it’s pathetic.
capacitor, I think that they should have fully thought out the consequences of deliberately lying to an unfriendly government(to themselves, other aid agencies, and the innocent bystanders they attempted to convert), not to save lifes, but to convert them to their religion. You are not a martyr if you stick your own head in the mouth of the lion.
The missionaries knew the laws of the land upfront. The fact that the laws were totally unjust and debased the religion they supposedly supported isn’t really the issue.
Hate to break it to you, but ANY religion can be perverted out of all recognition–Christianity included. Those missionaries fell into the sin and trap of hubris. They went looking for martyrdom and found it.
I don’t follow any organized religion anymore because–IMO–they basically teach the same things and all have suffered from imposed bureaucracy. But in my youth I was taught that Christianity was a faith based on love, truly revolutionary by embracing the outcast, and one to be taught by example. LIVING Christ’s lessons was the truest defense and persuasion.
The missionaries didn’t enter Afghanistan just to do good as Christ taught. They tied it up with strings to religious conversion, ignoring the fact that by doing so they were placing those they purported to help in worse peril. They were, in short, just as guilty of spiritual arrogance and blindness.
The way the millenium’s starting may indicate a trend toward stripping bullshit from religious basics. Or maybe I’m just tired.
One of the basic tenet of Christianity is that the condition of the soul is the most important concern of a person. Therefore if these people were engaged in trying to proselytize they were trying to meet what they saw as the most pressing need of those around them. If they did not it would have been like a doctor treating a sprained ankle while ignoring a massive head wound. If these people are sincere in their beliefs than they think it is better for the people they convert to be executed by the Taliban and go to heaven than for them to remain unconverted and be lost for eternity.
As for the statement that these people knew what they were doing was illegal, true enough. People of conscience have longed beleived that there is a higher law and when the law of a particular country is against that law then one should obey the higher law. MLK knew that what he was doing could land him in jail, Ghandi knew what he was doing was illegal but they both chose to obey the higher law.
Czarcasm, I’d argue that someone who gives their life in the furtherance of their faith is still a martyr. Wisdom is not a requirement of martyrdom. (Assuming, of course, that is the motivation - their faith. I assume so here)That said, they cannot ignore the consequence of their actions, and must weigh the possibility of others being cut off from aid as a result of their deceit. I hope no lives are lost to starvation, disease, etc. that could’ve been prevented by conventional aid that is cut off.
As to unjust/wrong laws, when you break laws, you must deal with the consequences. Gandhi spent time in jail for civil disobedience, and these missionaries should be prepared to. Unless my citizens were scheduled for execution or some other wildly disproportionate penalty, I wouldn’t create any huge incident over it.
Czercasm you do realize that the most agressive prozelytisers in the US–are Muslims. From where I am from, and where I work and shop, they are (or at least were) more active than even Jehovah’s Witness, with tables, booths, generic perfumes and everything. So they can do it here, but Christians can’t do it even in the most hostile of lands.
You damn right that unjust laws must be changed. Short of direct overthrow, peaceful protest is the best way. Remember, Czarcasm, Daniel got thrown into the lions for his beliefs. It changed the king’s heart when he survived.
I’m sorry, but I can think of no response to such a statement. While I won’t outright deny it, I wouldn’t mind seeing confirmation from other posters, or some statistics, or anything.
Not really. The missionaries, and all missionaries around the world, are following what is known as “the great commission.”
…“Then Jesus came to them and said…'Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations…”(I’ve edited this, but the entire commission can be found in Matthew 28:16-20)
The missionaries were just doing as they do in many other countries.