Gaudere and others, I think I finally have a good capsule sentence that explains something I believe. I can’t take credit for it. A friend of mine mentioned at a Birthday party last night that he had heard an excellent teaching the week before. In this teaching the following line was said:
“Faith REQUIRES unanswered questions.”
As soon as I heard it, I knew that it said better than I could something that I’ve not explained well, if at all. Actually, Guadere, I somewhat AGREE with parts of your last post! (Are you stunned?) Let me quote you:
You said:
“This is faith, not logic. An illogical thing does not become logical just because you have faith that it is, no matter how much you keep insisting that it works that way.”
Agreed, PARTLY at least. I have never said that an illogical thing becomes logical just because I have faith that it is. What I have said, and would continue to say, is that God Himself is always logical. He CREATED logic.
So if GOD says something, it’s logical. If I don’t understand the logic of it, I accept it on faith because it comes from God. Your statement starts out by assuming that the “thing” is illogical because you’ve judged it to be so. I say that if God said it, it must be logical, and I just don’t understand His logic yet. And yes, that’s faith. As my friend’s statement says: “Faith REQUIRES unanswered questions.” That’s why I’m concerned for you … you seem to want all questions answered (correct me if I’m wrong).
David B, similarly, said:
“That’s not logic, that’s belief.”
TRUE! But what you’re missing is what my belief is. I BELIEVE that God is always logical and makes sense and knows what He’s doing.
You also said: “You’re basically saying that you believe it because you believe it.” No, I’m saying I believe it because God said it and He’s trustworthy. I do have faith in Him.
David also said: “You are a human being with a brain. If you want to believe that God gave you that brain, fine – why not use it, then? Do you think God would give you a brain and then not want to see it used? What a terrible waste!”
I’m not totally sure how my quote prompted your statements here, but I think you’re saying that I would never try to figure out God’s logic. Not true! As I stated earlier in this thread (about 30 pages ago), there are MANY questions I’ve asked God and the Bible that I have wrestled through to satisfactory answers. There have been MANY “a-HA” moments when it finally hit me WHY God did certain things and what He was getting at.
My original quote you responded to was: “I genuinely don’t understand and see the logic in this, but good grief, who am I to question God?”
So David, are you saying you think I should question God’s genuineness just because I can’t INSTANTLY understand something? You can walk a fine line asking God questions. If you ask with the attitude “I HAVE to know NOW or I’m not going to trust you anymore!”, I can pretty much guarantee that you won’t find any answers from God. If, however, you say “I don’t know NOW, but I TRUST you God even though I don’t understand. I’d LIKE to understand. SHOW me. TEACH me. If it takes 30 YEARS or the REST OF MY LIFE, I’ll be patient” … THAT’s a healthy attitude.
Finally, I said: “If I and God have a disagreement, guess who should win?” You said: “You. Because at least we know you exist.”
David … you CAN’T be serious. Please tell me you’re just funning me. PLEASE! I am blown away that anyone would sincerely answer that way. I’m sorry if this sounds too sarcastic, but I am semi-speechless.
I will say again, I believe God exists because He’s lived in my soul since I was 8 years old. Plus, just common sense and observing the way the earth and universe work, the way my body works, etc. That’s a whole 'nother topic.
Gaudere I didn’t forget your last comment. Here’s what I’m getting at. I believe what I believe based on the foundation of the Bible. What is the foundation on which you believe what you believe? You said: “Do I think that, given true premises and good application of logic, one can discover true things? Yes.” So where do these true premises and good applications of logic come from? Who is it that says they are true and good? How can you be sure?
Now … and I may regret it, but I’ll comment on a FEW of the “specifics”. I’m starting to not want to do that more and more because it doesn’t seem to be accomplishing anything … but I think I’ll try one more time.
You said: “What you do is state your faith that God must punish all humans fairly. This is faith. Then you state that God does not, in fact, punish all humans fairly. This is illogical”
First off … just in general, if I do a bad job of explaining something from the Bible, and make it sound illogical, that’s a reflection of ME, not the Bible. If indeed I had said what you quoted, that’s a reflection of my (perhaps) poor skills in arguing a point.
I clarified this point in a recent post. God is just and so He must punish sin. (not “must punish all humans fairly”). God’s mercy allowed Jesus to take the punishment for us, which we don’t deserve.
You say it isn’t logical. I say that you and I don’t SEE the logic because we aren’t God. His ability to implement logic is on a dramatically higher plane than yours or mine.
Let me put it this way. I’m sure you’ve heard of the whole Trinity thing. Perfect example. God is ONE being. Yet He is, at the SAME TIME, Three distinct personalities - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I gave the “water as water, steam, and ice” example a few posts back, but even that is a poor illustration. I’ve never known a single Christian that could fully explain the Trinity to anyone’s satisfaction, and I doubt I ever will.
So what do you do with this concept Gaudere? Do you place your own beliefs about what is logical ahead of God’s and say “THAT just ISN’T logical, so GOD isn’t logical, so I’m NOT gonna believe in Him or follow Him!” Now I haven’t heard your comments on the Trinity, but if you do in fact find it illogical and leave that belief as your final statement on the matter … I must say truthfully that you are depending on faith too. You have faith that your logic is correct. What if you are wrong?
Finally, you said:
"For example, if someone stated that their God loved everyone, no matter what, and then later stated that their God did not love everyone, wouldn’t you refuse to accept that their God made any sense? Would you allow them to say “it makes perfect sense, I can’t tell you how, but I know it does and you should accept this”? "
Let me give you a real-life story to somewhat answer your question. In 1995, while riding a bus into downtown Atlanta for work, I met a woman named Fay and we became friends. Over time, just through honestly answering her questions about “how I was doing” and what was going on in my life, she came to realize I was a Christian and began asking me questions about it.
We went through an interesting 9 month dialogue. She asked very challenging questions, and to be honest in HER case I was able to answer most of them to her satisfaction from the Bible. I did it in bits and pieces during bus rides for 9 months.
However, there were some questions I just couldn’t answer. For example, she thought it was unfair that God would allow someone into heaven on their deathbed if they got saved, but not let someone into heaven that had been a “good person” their whole life. Again, I kept pointing out the principle I’d given her that there isn’t such a thing as a good person, and she said she understood it but didn’t want to accept it because it didn’t seem fair, etc etc etc.
Well guess what? I never answered her question. After 9 months, she came to Christ anyway. Why, you ask? Because it’s not my job to fully convince someone to come to Christ. It’s not my job to fully answer each question. It’s my job to answer every question I can, and, as they say, “let God do the rest”.
GOD is the ultimate one who has to convince you Guadere. The real, actual, living, breathing God who you say you don’t believe in. I can’t do that. That’s what God did with my friend Fay. As I prayed for her, GOD moved in her heart and life and began to show Himself to her.
The key for HER though was … she was OPEN to God. She was WILLING for God to show Himself to her. God is a gentleman, and He won’t force Himself on anyone.
I will confess that part of the problem here … and I’m embarrassed to admit it … is I’ve not been praying. My prayer life as a whole isn’t where it should be anyway, but I’m not praying that God will show Himself to you like I should. But I’ll tell you this … I promise to you that I will right after I hit the Submit button, because I truly believe He wants to show Himself to you, in some way. I just pray that you are truly open.
So no, I don’t expect you to accept this just because I say it and it doesnt all make sense to you. God has to do His part too. And I’m going to pray right now that He will.
Have a good night! 
