Christianity and Love

Great Debates
41

pepperlandgirl wrote:

No one’s asking any church to change their stance, particularly this guy - he’s even going so far as to leave the church because he knows his actions will be imcompatible with their teachings, despite the fact that, this one single contrariness aside, he does believe in the church’s teachings. But it’s exactly because of this, that an otherwise viable religious belief system (for some people, at least, and I’m talking the whole of Christianity, not just LDS) would cut off its nose despite its own face in such a way. It’s just sad.

Hopefully I’ll be able to convert him to Unitarian Universalism… :smiley:

Esprix

42

Monster104, the version I was using was the New International Version. The KJV uses “effeminate” for homosexual.

Boris, I’d like to make a brief comment about what you said. I think that until the last 10-20 years or so, the church HAS unfortunately been somewhat “anti-sex”, and still is to a smaller degree today. However, much more importantly, God is not, nor has He ever been, anti-sex. Read the Bible book of Song of Solomon - half of is married people having sex! The truly unfortunate thing is that many people are missing out on the best sex life possible by not having sex in the way God intended. Thankfully, the church has begun waking up to this point in the 80s and moreso in the 90s.

43

Love is only for the lucky and the strong.
Bette Midler said so.
… sort of.

44

FriendofGod wrote:

If you don’t speak for my spiritual well-being, please don’t speak for my sexual well-being. :rolleyes:

Esprix

45

I am not Christion, so maybe I shouldn’t comment, but I will :slight_smile: I think that whatever created us (be it the christion god, or whatever) that entity created love; created all kinds of love, paternal, material, true, hetro and homosexual, so how can it be wrong? In my religion their is no difference, love is celebrated as love, sex celebrated as procreation and beautiful.

46

Hi Nika :slight_smile:
Well, my response is let’s look at food as an example. Food is a great thing, but the wrong KIND of food can cause problems. Eating TOO MUCH can cause problems. Eating at the wrong time of day may also cause problems (too close to bedtime, etc). The same is true with LOVE. Not all love is healthy. Look at it this way. Haven’t you even seen heterosexual relationships where the couple was in love with each other, but it was actually a bad situation for the woman and she couldn’t see it but everyone around them could? My point: just because two people love each other doesn’t make it a healthy or good situation. God created HEALTHY love.

Esprix: I don’t claim to speak for either your spiritual OR sexual well-being! I am merely pointing out that the Bible clearly defines how to have a great sex life and a great life in general. Whether you choose to go by it’s advice is totally up to you! I don’t know how life should be lived any more than you or anyone … only God knows, and thankfully He’s given us the Bible to answer those questions.

47

I don’t think it clearly defines this point at all. I have seen it argued that the Bible was admonishing men and women becuase they were performing sex in the context of the practice of religon. I don’t have a Bible with me here except one of those little Psalms/New Testament things. But I will look it up later today when I get a chance. There are some specific quotes that suggest that God was condemning the practice of sodomy that was being performed in pagan temples. Pretty much every reference suggests that these acts were done to degrade the people and God. I just couldn’t interpret any of these scriptures (and we must also remember the various translations can cause subtle differences) to suggest that God was displeased with two people who love each other. Like I said before I cannot interpret any of this to mean that he was talking about people of modest demeanor who were otherwise honoring themselves and God. He condems openly excessive, profane behavior.

Need2know

48

FriendofGod wrote:

Arguably you do, simply by saying things like:

Your argument here is that my love is somehow unhealthy. Further:

So, since you have a Bible, then obviously you do know how life “should” be lived, and, since I don’t believe in that same book, I don’t.

If I may suggest, perhaps ending your erroneously blanketed statements with the simple words “for me” would do a world of good for all those reading your posts.

You’re absolutely right - it is. And, for the record, my sex life is phenomenally, outrageously wonderful - it’s nice to be in a loving, caring romantic relationship with Dr. Boyfriend, and it makes our love life, and our sex life, completely fulfilling.

For me. :wink:

Esprix

49

Hi again Esprix. First let me clarify something … I am totally new to this board (I’ve been here about 3 days) and I don’t know you personally. I don’t know anything at all about your personal relationships.

You said: “Your argument here is that my love is somehow unhealthy.” I don’t know anything about how you love and who you love, so why do you think I’m commenting on you personally? I don’t know anything about your personal relationships.

Second, you said “So, since you have a Bible, then obviously you do know how life “should” be lived, and, since I don’t believe in that same book, I don’t. If I may suggest, perhaps ending your erroneously blanketed statements with the simple words “for me” would do a world of good for all those reading your posts.”

Esprix I’m afraid I can’t tiptoe about this one. If you choose, for example, to not believe in the law of physics, that’s your right. But it doesn’t change the fact that the law of physics is the truth. If I choose TO believe in it, that doesn’t make it any MORE true. It’s just true.

Now, if I’m just giving my personal opinion about something, sure I’ll say “for me”. My personal opinion isn’t dramatically important in the world, but God’s Truth is God’s Truth and you and I can’t change it. It is not a matter of opinion. I am aware that this offends people, but I risk that offense because only truth can really help people. The fact that I believe it doesn’t make it any more true. The fact that you don’t doesn’t make it any less true. It is truth, plain and simple, just like the law of physics.

Esprix, I’m sure you will disagree with me, but I really believe that the fact that America has moved AWAY from believing that there is Absolute Truth is at the foundation of why our society has gotten so royally screwed up. To me common sense and observation will tell you that. (Notice that now I am saying “to me” since I’m not directly quoting a Bible truth :)).

I know that my saying the Bible is true won’t convince you that it is. Only God himself can do that and I am praying that He will. But I’m afraid I can’t and won’t back down from calling a fact a fact. I WILL try to be careful to only do that with clearly stated biblical messages.

I know that wasn’t the response you were looking for, but I hope you “get” where I’m coming from even if you don’t agree.

50

FriendofGod wrote:

It’s so good to see someone else who understands that the Holy Koran is the inerrant word of God!

51

tracer wrote:

I could just kiss you, lad. :smiley:

I’m not even going to bother to reply - “it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

Esprix, once again giving thanks for being a Unitarian Universalist…

52

Actually only my interpretation of the bible is gods truth, not the koran and not the bible, just my interpretation of it. and my bible says i should be emperor

53

People are distorting what love truly is.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. (from the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7)

Now tell me where in that passage about love sex is mentioned.

Homosexuality is sex between two men. Love between two men is not homosexuality; true love doesn’t delight in evil, so it cannot be part of homosexuality.

The quote “Love thy neighbor as thyself” is referring to the kind of love mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, Dinsdale. Not “some types of homosexuality.”

54

Romanticizing sexless love? Sheesh… :rolleyes:

Once again, I’m ever thankful I’m not Christian.

Here, piggy piggy piggy! Now, then, this is “middle C”…

Esprix

55

I’m sorry, I must have misread your cite, I thought the passage was from the Bible, not The Official: This is Love Handbook.

56

Ok, so when two people love each other it’s good. When two people love each other and have sex, it’s good–but only if one has XX chromosomes and the other has XY chromosomes. People who love each other and have sex who have any other combination of chromosomes are “delighting in evil”. You’ve got a funny God, WaitingToo Long.

57

You guys are misreading what WaitingTooLong wrote. Love between two men isn’t a sin. I love my brother. I love my dad. I have many guy friends that I love. But none of these are ROMANTIC love relationships. They are … for lack of a better word, “friendship” love relationships.

Esprix, do you believe that it’s impossible to have a romantic love relationship without sex? I’ve known couples that dated for 2-3 years without sex, and were among the healthiest and happiest couples I’ve ever known. Then, of course, when they got married … well lets just say many of them probably had to buy new beds within a week!

Gaudere … you said “When two people love each other and have sex, it’s good–but only if one has XX chromosomes and the other has XY chromosomes.” Well that’s not what WaitingTooLong said, or what I said. I’m afraid I was MORE restrictive! I would say that the ONLY sex that God says is good (make that great) is sex between a husband and wife. In other words, God says that married sex is the only holy sex, and the only sex he honors. Not just sex between two people who love each other, heterosexual OR homosexual.

58

[quote]
I’ve known couples that dated for 2-3 years without sex, and were among the healthiest and happiest couples I’ve ever known. Then, of course, when they got married … well lets just say many of them probably had to buy new beds within a week![/quote[

The idea of sex was no doubt on their minds the entire two or three years they were together. Otherwise they wouldn’t have worn out the mattress so quickly. Whether or not they were actually engaging in intercourse, there was a sexual aspect to their relationship. It was a romantic, for lack of a better word, relationship.

Question: Are you saying then that a relationship between two men or two women is sinful if it involves sexual attraction, as in your example? Or just consummation?

Further question: If Esprix (who is gay, btw, if that helps explain his offense at your telling him he’s unhealthy) and his SO walk around town holding hands, exchanging manly affectionate embraces, and live together, but don’t ever have sex (not even Clinton sex), thet are they still condemned to damnation by the Lord?

59

First of all … “Clinton sex”!! LOL! I love that phrase. Can I borrow it if you don’t mind? :slight_smile:

“Question: Are you saying then that a relationship between two men or two women is sinful if it involves sexual attraction, as in your example? Or just consummation?”

Here’s an overall clarification: having an attraction to someone of the same sex isn’t a sin. (Gasp!! I know you’re shocked). Here’s another one: having an attraction to someone you’re not married to is not a sin either.

You can probably tell where I’m going with this. ACTING on the attraction is the sin, in either of the above cases. And no, I don’t just mean sex. To use my “comparison” illustration further: if a married woman is flirting with a man who isn’t her husband, kissing, hugging, and being romantically affectionate, she is engaging in what some have called “emotional adultery”. It’s a sin. Perhaps not QUITE as serious as actually following through with sex, but still very serious nonetheless.

The same thing goes with same-sex attraction. Suppose I find myself sexually attracted to a man. If I choose to act on it at all, in flirting, kissing, being romantic, etc, it’s a sin. It’s not just a sex thing, it’s pursuing romantic relationships that are not heathy by God’s definition.

Thank you for explaining about Esprix, now I understand. As for your other line, “are they still condemned to damnation by the Lord?” let me clarify something else.

God has never condemned anyone to damnation. God’s desire is to bring people into His kingdom, and when we choose to walk away from Him and do our own thing, we are damning OURSELVES. The truth is, it is astonishing that God allows anyone to heaven because there isn’t anyone alive that deserves it. I sure don’t.

My point is that the tone of your quote is not the tone that God would set. To use the example you gave, God does not look at Esprix holding hands with another man and say, “Well, that does it! Off to hell with you!” That’s just crazy. God looks at his life, and my life, and everyone’s life and says three things:

“I LOVE YOU. I don’t want to punish you for your sins, whatever they may be.”
“I’M A JUST JUDGE. You are guilty, therefore I HAVE to punish you for your sins.”
“To solve this conflict, I offer you Jesus, the perfect Son of God, who died to take the full punishment for all your sins. If you choose to submit your life to Him, I will forgive you of all your sins.”

It’s that simple. Hope that helps!

60

I love the elaborate rigamarole an omnipotent God “has” to go through to get people into heaven. He’s God, fercryin’outloud; he can do whatever He wants, He didn’t have to do any of this stuff at all! So this is His reasoning, you say: People don’t deserve to be in heaven, in His opinion. But He wants them there. So instead of just shrugging and going, “Ok, everybody in!” He has to incarnate Himself as a human, get Himself crucified and rise again just so He can appease Himself. Doesn’t this seem a little odd? Oh, and to get in, you can be a total jerk for your whole life, as long as with your last breath you believe God really did do this exceedingly strange thing.