I am not attempting to start an atheist-believeer fight; I’m just interested in people’s take on this. The thought comes to mind because this was my week to go to church with Mrs. Rhymer. Though generally I sit through the services in good-natured boredom (except when my wife is singing in the choir, at which times I think to myself, God, for someone who doesn’t exist, you are an amazingly gifted craftsman and did a great job on Kimster), and the distinction between testing and tempting was the topic of the sermon. Her pastor’s take on it was stupid, as he is a moron*, but I’d be interested to hear what some intelligent believers think, and there are, after all, at least 20 on this board I can think of without trying hard.
Anyway…thoughts?
*Please note that I am not calling all Christians morons or even all Christian ministers moron. My insult is specific to this yahoo.
Well if you read the book of Job it would seem that there is no difference. Satan is the tool by which God tests us.
People don’t talk much about the nature of Angels, but essentially the idea of angels is that they are the appendages of God that allow him to operate in the material world. Satan is an angel. As Angels were not gifted with free will the whole idea of Satan ‘falling’ because he rebelled is rather silly, I mean within the established rules set down for angels. People don’t like the idea that Satan works for God.
Hmm. I seldom think of temptation as specifically the actions of Satan, but more that we live in a state that has faultiness to the point where we may turn away from God. And while God allows that, because of free will, I also don’t necessarily think of Him as purposely putting tests in our way. “He won’t allow us to be tempted more than we can bear” isn’t the same as Him piling up temptations actively.
Since Christ is our example, what about when He was tempted? In the desert he was crazy-hungry and thought, hmmm, I have the power to make bread if I want…but no, my fasting has purpose and I won’t give in to the temptation. It’s personified as Satan but it could just as easily be the thoughts that creep into anyone’s mind that lead them away from God. He was tempted to not go through with being tortured and killed, but asked for God’s grace and God’s will instead. None of this feels like Satan or God’s actions, but the faultiness of a human that may lead him out of grace.
It was mostly a list of thing Satan would tempt people by and made no attempt at ah, categorization, or of explaining how the two sorts of phenomena could be distinguished. Also he contradicted himself several times unintentionally–by which I mean he noticed the contradiction himself and backpedalled.
I (lapsed Lutheran) would say that, in the way I have heard the terms used (by humans, that is; ain’t heard a peep from the Big Guy on this), TESTING would refer to obstacles or misfortune being placed in your way, whereas TEMPTING would be (a) presenting the easy (but wrong) solution to those problems or (b) presenting a worldly pleasure that is actually a sin that’s going to f— up your life.
So, for example:
God TESTS you by allowing you to lose your job. Satan then TEMPTS you by causing a bag of money to fall off a Brinks truck. You know you should turn it in, but…
God TESTS you with a stressful workload in college. Satan TEMPTS you to numb the stress and anxiety through booze and drugs.
Etc. Of course, IMO, all of these obstacles/solutions (tests/temptations) are of purely human manufacture. Can’t really blame God for getting you fired. (I mean, what, he felt no need to test those AIG guys …?)
The way I have heard it summarised, is that God makes it harder for you while Satan makes it easier for you. God tests you by making what you’re doing difficult, while Satan offers you an out.
Looking on the temptation of Jesus, Satan wants/hopes, maybe even expects us (the believer) to give in, he believes he has a chance with God’s Son. He is not acting as God’s servant, but for his own gain. God uses this trait of Satan to test us. God knows exactly what Satan is going to do if given the chance, and God provided a escape for us. By allowing Satan to tempt us we get to grow in faith, that God really means what He says when He says we will be able to withstand it.
Actually, it’s more like someone who is claiming to represent God(totally different from all those other yahoos who claim they represent God) telling you to choke down a bunch of pills claiming that if you do so you’ll get all sorts of rewards. When you ask for references from those that have received these rewards, none are provided.
In the meantime, could someone pass me one of those maple bars?
Y’know, this is one of those questions that separate me from the Fundementalists. (You know what your “fundement” is, right? Yeah, I know I misspelled it, but I enjoy it.)
Background: I have my clock radio set to WMBI, an organ of the Moody Bible Institute. Music I worked into my dreams. News I ignored. Heresy, now, that gets my attention.
This morning, they were talking about Dirty Words (BOOOO!). The host said, “After uttering a stream of cuss words,” (their term) “You must ask yourself, ‘Why did the Holy Spirit allow me to say such things?’”
Mine Wife, the former Methodist, gave him the benefit of the doubt, “He may not be using the same vocabulary as you when he said, ‘allowed…’” She then launched into an Anti-Mormon screed, which I ignored.
I said, “WTF! Is this where he dismisses personal responsibility? First it was, ‘The Devil made me do it,’ and now it’s, ‘The Holy Spirit ALLOWED me to saw it?!?!?’” Sinning is a PERSONAL CHOICE!
Then the clock struck 9AM and what little Christianity I’d absorbed over the weekend vanished.
Bolding mine. If God knows exactly what Satan will do, he also knows exactly what we will do. Thus, there isn’t any free will and no matter what we do it is already preordained whether we go to heaven or hell. He knows if I’ll choose the delicious, sugary delight of the KrispyKreme donut over the nasty, moldy carrot. He placed the temptation, knows the result of doing so, and is willing to let us burn because of HIS choice.
If there is a god, and he exists according to your beliefs, then we are all pawns on a chess board that HE plays by himself. We are subject to his whim to be sacrificed when and as HE sees fit.
Uzi: It’s probably better to think that God knows all the things we may do. But he leaves it up to us to decide which path we take. In this way he can be said to be all-knowing whilst giving us freewill by himself being wilfully ignorant of what our choice shall be. This also validates the test. If God chose to know which path we would take, then testing us would be a futile exercise. There’s an important difference between knowing the future and pre-ordaining it. The Bible indicates that God does not direct absolutely everything and some things he ‘allows’ to happen because it’s part of his will (which is to allow for freewill). Although he does seem to screw around with it all a little, forcing certain individuals to do certain things.
Anyway. Christian school of thought on the subject is vast, ranging from everything being a temptation from Satan (including things like Satan orchestrating Harry Potter to draw kids to the occult) to everything, including Satan’s actions, being ordained by God.
Personally (since this is what the OP is looking for), I think Biblically the only times when it has been Satan tempting people, he is made it abundantly clear it is he. Since he’s not omnipotent, he can’t be everywhere at once tempting everyone. A visit from Satan would be something of a special occasion.
Also, in New Testament Christianity there is a strong emphasis on Satan being defeated. I am in the camp that would believe he can no longer do anything. The shackles of death are broken etc blah. For me personally, I don’t consider events being from either possibility unless God actually popped down and told me either before or after ‘That’s a test by the way’. If he’s silent about the whole thing, and normally is, then it was neither Satan nor God. It was just a random life-shaping event, allowed by God obviously because he want’s me to choose.
The actual difference as has been mentioned is intent. Satan comes to kill and destroy, God comes to release and uplift. Similar stuff can be done to a person to achieve either outcome, so categorising things seems pointless. (Like say, Satan makes your car break down when you go to Church because he hates you as opposed to God makes you car break down when you go to work because he loves you.)