David’s conundrum is an important one. I see it borne out of a loving father’s concern for his son. SM made some good points. However, the laws of our land are written and interpreted in such a way that the conundrum stands. As responsible citizens we do have recourse, we CAN act. Each one of us is in some sense responsible for the government that govers us. Don’t like the system? THEN, get up off your LAZY BUTT and act! David’s issue is VERY important for CHILDREN are our future (hope that didn’t sound too trite)!
This world is filled with many kinds of injustice. It is OUR responsiblity to change the world as much as we can. The most radical change starts with ourselves and radiates outward to our family, friends, and others who we have daily contact, then to others further out in the circle all the way out to the person we drive beside on the freeway, and further out to people we never meet but are impacted by our votes and our consumption of goods and services.
“How can I change the world when I can’t change myself?” Todd Rundgren
Just a few thoughts for your consideration.
Yours,
Phaedrus
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.
OK, since David screwed up & put his rant (see the 1st 2 posts) here instead of in the Pit where it belongs, I’ve partially corrected that error by entering my response to his recent posts & behavior in the Pit.
If he honestly wanted to hear different opinions on this topic, he’s sure going about it strangely - opening with statements like “Fuck You”, and ignoring posters whose posts he doesn’t want to answer.
woooo makes you wonder how Christians feel living in Israel doesn’t it? I guess the saying “When in Rome Do as The Romans” doesn’t apply in this particular case…
We did buid our country on fundamental Christian beliefs…money with “In God We Trust” still circulates…and I believe the first settlers here left England because of religious persecution…
What an honor and priviledge we enjoy…to have the freedome to even post…pursue…call…write…attend meetings when we feel that we or our family has been slighted…thank God.
Well, Sue, I’d just like to thank you for showing me that I was right all along. I decide to answer you honestly and you decide to respond by flaming me (and even starting a new thread to do so) in the Pit. Well, that certainly shows that you were interested in discussion, not just in supporting your pal. You didn’t “correct an error” by posting to the Pit – it was a debate, and this is where it belonged. It seems fairly obvious that you posted a new thread to the Pit so you could continue attacking me when it became obvious that this thread was pretty much over because the questions had been answered and things were getting quiet.
So go have your fun. I won’t be joining you there. And I certainly will keep in mind your immaturity for the future when you pretend to be reasonable. You’ve shown your true colors, and they are exactly what I suspected them to be.
Israel considers itself a “Jewish state.” The United States is not a “Christian country.” There is quite a bit of difference. (Even so, I think the Orthodox Jews in Israel have too much power, but that’s another thread entirely.)
No, we built our country on freedom. That includes the First Amendment.
Which is a relatively new invention compared to the founding of our country.
Precisely. What better reason to be in favor of religious freedom? (Not that those particular folks were, necessarily. Many were in favor of religious freedom for themselves, but didn’t necessarily apply it to others. Thankfully, more reasonable thoughts prevailed.)
The questions had been answered? Really? Not by YOU they weren’t! YOU still have not answered all the questions in this thread. You have ignored most of the posters, myself included, that have ask you hard question about YOUR topic, THE ONE YOU RAISED, but you did not answer. You only answer question you want? You call that a discussion? That doesn’t seem like a discussion to me.
Maybe she moved over to the Pit because you would not discuss the topic YOU raised? David, if you can’t stand the heat of debate, then do not bring up controversial topics. You didn’t really want a discssion, David, you wanted to make a damn negative statement about Christmas and have it go unchallenged.
Could you please list The Questions David Has Not Answered (with cites, preferably), John John? I think a while ago he covered “what do you think should be done about Halloween?” and I thought that was the only one that kept being brought up.
“I believe it is easy to loose sight of the fact the the Lord has created athiests for a reason…to test our faith. They tempt us with reason and facts… Embrase agnostics!! I would cry it from every rooftop: ‘Embrase an agnostic!’” --“Bell”, on the LBMB
Actually, these things can contribute to the core mission, if done properly. For example, a pageant (or a play or a musical concert) can be used to teach students how to make a presentation before an audience or how to memorize text, not to mention how to co-operate with others and be part of a team effort. While the distribution of Valentines may not be educational, the making of them can be used to teach students how to cut, paste, color, etc. And at the very least, these activities can be used to teach students about the various cultural aspects of a society – isn’t that the goal of Social Studies?
I think it would be a very rare occurrence for a teacher to spend time on an activity that didn’t attempt to achieve some learning objective. From the outside, however, sometimes it’s difficult to see those objective. But that doesn’t mean that the activities are not legitimate.
These are questions that David should ask ,and defend, not you. Answering you just perpetuates the problem that most people have with David, he does not answers questions. Why would I want to have this discussion with a surrogate, when the actual person is capable of answering for himself.
Gaudere, all you have to do is go back and read my posts to see the questions I asked and did not receive. I do not want YOU to answer them, since you do not have first hand knowledge, or know what is in David’s heart or mind. You don’t profess to know that, do you?
For David b:
A- when you brought your son to this fee based school, what was the fee?, did you raise these issues?
B- if you live in a predominantly Christian area, didn’t you realize this might be a problem?
C- what research did you do BEFORE you put your son in that school?
D- if these are serious issues why don’t you send your son to a Jewish pre school and avoid this ?
E - did you tell the school ahead of time what programs your son should be excluded from?
F- when you had to produce his birth certificate for registration shouldn’t you have raised issues of importance to your son and family?
For the umpteenth time – this country is not an atheistic country, despite your evident desire that it be so. Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion and, in any event, the things you have complained about in this thread – Santas, snowmen, Christmas trees, what have you – are not religious symbols and implicate the First Amendment not at all. If you want to keep raising this red herring, perhaps you can articulate how having your three year old cut out a Santa infringes on your right to religious freedom. Note that, to do so, you will have to convert Santa from a secular holiday symbol to a religious one – I’m truly interested to see how you will do so. Gaudere, note that this is a DIRECT QUESTION posited to David; either he is going to have to break down and ANSWER it, despite his presumed disapproval of the poster, or reveal himself to be nothing more than a whiner who cannot defend his position in a debate that he himself started.
Oh, and one more thing: David says that “In God We Trust” is “a relatively new invention compared to the founding of our country,” which is totally disingenuous since he knows damn well IGWT has been on coins in this nation since the Civil War – which, by my math, is closer to the country’s founding than it is to modern times and only by the most incredible leap of logic could be considered “relatively new.” David likes to focus on IGWT on paper money (which is relatively recent) as opposed to IGWT on coins, which is not, because it makes his arguments on that subject seem more persuasive than they are. I know this, because we’ve already argued IGWT to death, and it is only notable as yet another thread where David set himself up as the arbiter of Consitutionality – i.e., it isn’t consitutional because he says it isn’t.
I find it extremely ironic that David high-handedly announces who he will or will not respond to; questions people’s motivations in posting to this thread; is so incredibly pompous and patronizing (as usual) that he provokes people into incivility, and then points to that incivility as proof that he was right to ignore people in the first place! If he would just answer the damned questions, maybe we could either move forward with this or put it to bed.
I can read the thread as well as you, so I can refer to what answers have already been given by David. I had no intention of answering for David, but when you get snotty after an honest question you do not help your argument and you annoy me enough to make me argumentative in return. Your questions do not seem particularly applicable to me; the issue is “Should a Christian holiday be emphasized over other religious celebrations in a school funded with public money?” I would say no. If it should not be, should David have to take his child out of a publically-funded school to prevent this? David has stated that he did not know beforehand how they would deal with Christmas. Are you blaming him for not checking thoroughly enough that the school would not do something he considered self-evidently wrong? I certainly would not have expected my father to check and see if, say, prayer in school was mandatory when he signed me up; if it shouldn’t be done, it shouldn’t be done.
“I believe it is easy to loose sight of the fact the the Lord has created athiests for a reason…to test our faith. They tempt us with reason and facts… Embrase agnostics!! I would cry it from every rooftop: ‘Embrase an agnostic!’” --“Bell”, on the LBMB
For anyone seriously interested in discussing this topic (obviously this excludes David), who is wondering whether their school’s activities are within existing law & policy, here is an excerpt from the Secretary of the Department of Education’s statement on Religious Expression. (cite included)Teaching about religion: Public schools may not provide religious instruction, but they may teach about religion, including the Bible or other scripture: the history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature, and the role of religion in the history of the United States and other countries all are permissible public school subjects. Similarly, it is permissible to consider religious influences on art, music, literature, and social studies. Although public schools may teach about religious holidays, including their religious aspects, and may celebrate the secular aspects of holidays, schools may not observe holidays as religious events or promote such observance by students.
John John, how exactly did you check into Brother D’s park dept. school program?
in response to John John’s previous claim:
quote:
I just did a search of Parks Dept pre shool and found that it does have a fee, as I said, and that a birth certificate must also be produced at time of registration.
kepi
--------wooo00000000ooosh--------
David said his son went to Parks Dept pre school. I did a check of them and found out there is a fee and birth certificate requirement. Question asked and answered. So, what’s the problem?
If you can read as well as me, I think you can, then please show me where he has answered my qestions?
So, you are admitting that David acting snotty after an honest question did not help his argument?
Gaudere, you and I discussing what questions David B did or did not answer is counterproductive. Let David answer for himself. You say you will not answer for David and then answer for David. hello?
