JJ: Not that it matters to the meat of the thread, since a Parks Department is a branch of government and subject to the proscription on establishment (whether or not a fee is involved), but the problem is that perhaps kepi doesn’t understand your answer fully. I certainly don’t.
Do all “Parks Department” children’s programs require a fee, whether that Department is in New York or a county in Illinois or the State of Delaware? Or did you learn about the particular program where David B lives? Or are we completely misunderstanding, and “Parks Department” is the name of a private company that does programs for children? Or what? It just seems a little creepy that you’d know that level of detail about a municipality’s Parks Department children’s program unless there was a web site for it.
No, I did not say I would not answer for David. I said: “I had no intention of answering for David, but when you get snotty after an honest question you do not help your argument and you annoy me enough to make me argumentative in return.” as you clearly quoted above. I was polite and honestly curious in my request to know what questions David had not answered. Not all questions in this thread have been requested so calmly (from either side, I will certainly admit), and when about four people are asking them at once I can lose track of what Questions David Did Not Answer that you are referring to.
JJ, you’re a crappy debater. You resolutely misinterpret posts and refuse to accept answers even when they are given to you politely and repeatedly (see the “6 Billion” thread and your insistence that David could not be a Jew and an atheist, which took about a dozen posts from Keeves, Phil and I before you would accept that he could). I advise you again to reconsider your debate style. Feel free to start a Pit thread that is titled “Gaudere is a pompous arrogant weasel” if my remarks have offended you. Have a happy New Year’s.
“I believe it is easy to loose sight of the fact the the Lord has created athiests for a reason…to test our faith. They tempt us with reason and facts… Embrase agnostics!! I would cry it from every rooftop: ‘Embrase an agnostic!’” --“Bell”, on the LBMB
I understand your curiosity but am puzzled that you did not try to find out on your own.
Parks Dept is a part of City Government, directed by the State, and is not directly under the control by Federal Government. Yes, all Parks Dept pre shools have a fee, unless you are indigent, and ALL require birth certificates. In order to tell you about David’s specific Parks Region you’ll have to tell me what State and District he lives in. Do you know that?
Again, please take note that third parties are answering for David who are not in posession of all the facts. David has not supplied them.
Thanks, manhattan! That was my point exactly. John John keeps mentioning this “fee and birth certificate required” argument as if that alone somehow invalidates David’s objection. I’m just curious how JJ would know the specifics of David’s particular program.
So, John John, I’ll try to be more direct in my questions:
Which specific Park’s Dept program did you check? Please provide the municipality of the park department and the name of the specific program in which David enrolled his son.
How can I validate that the information you claim is true? Please provide a link to a website, a phone number or an address where I can verify your claim.
I suspect that you won’t be able to provide any of the above, because you did not actually do any research into the matter. Instead, you probably made up information that supported your argument (and you didn’t really do that very well).
For the record, I checked with my local Parks and Recreation department website ( www.ci.grapevine.tx.us/parks/index.html ) to verify the requirements for the various pre-school programs. Each program did include a fee ranging from $25 for the “Cooking Is Fun” class to $125 for the “Pony Club” horse program. Nowhere on the registration form is there any mention that a birth certificate is required for enrollment in any program.
So, John John, your postings hold no credibility, because, in a word, you’re full of crap.
Kepi, I’ve answered your question already. Birth Certificates are required for insurance coverage and to be sure YOU are the legal guardian of the child you are enrolling. Check this out with your own Parks Deptment Pre School.
The point that I’m raising, and David is not answering, is that it is not something you just dump your child into but something that requires some thought. My question was, and is, why not ask about things THEN?
Um, Kepi and John, I don’t know what the solution here is, maybe you need to take this to email or something and then report back whether you are satisfied. I know that if I were David I would be rather uncomfortable with someone posting here on the message board exactly where it was that my kid went to school.
In the heat of debate let us not lose sight of the fact that we are dealing with a real child here.
And, having said that, Kepi, I’m sorry that I have only just made your acquaintance and don’t know a lot about you. Do you have kids, and if so, are they of school age? It has been my experience in enrolling my three kids in school that the school does want a copy of a birth certificate – or at least to see it – to verify age, etc. This was at least true in originally enrolling them in kindergarten, since most states have “cut-off dates” for a child’s birthday and when they can start school. Whether that holds true or not for the program David’s kid is in I don’t know, given that it is apparently a pre-school.
Kepi, call this number,217-535-3000 in Illinois and they will be able to answer your questions. As Melin wisely suggests, let us not get into specifics about children and where they go to school.
Sorry. I mentioned a few pages back that I didn’t intend to get into a pissing match with John John, and here I’ve gone and done just that. Just felt like I couldn’t let JJ make a broad claim as fact without providing information to back it up. And I certainly didn’t intend to for anyone to post where David’s or anyone’s child attended school. Just wanted to determine the credibility of JJ’s post:
I’m satisfied that he did NOT check out David’s Park Department and the requirements he stated were made up. Sorry for hijacking the thread and I will let this issue drop.
My background: Single with no children. Certified by the State of Texas to teach secondary History and English. Work in a corporate training department as a Technical Writer/Trainer. Sister teaches 4th grade in the public schools here in Texas.
I agree with you that most, if not all, public school districts require a birth certificate when enrolling a child in the public school system. However, I don’t think the “school” being discussed here is a K-12 public school. I assume from David’s original post that it is a preschool program offered through his local Parks department. Upon checking with my local Parks department, I did not find any birth certificate requirement for enrollment in any of its programs (preschool or otherwise). I could be wrong, as I’ve not actually tried to enroll a child in any of these programs, but I assume that the enrollment process would be the same for these as it would be when enrolling an older child in swimming lessons, arts and crafts classes, or summer basketball camp.
Kepi, I’m glad you are going to let this issue drop. I will too.
An additional note. Below is a copy of the email I got from Grapevine, Texas, from the link kepi provided, which seems to make her case, at least in that area. That was not the case with the school districts I did check. I print it in order to keep these proceeding honest.
I can only guess that since this School District does not require birth certificates, [just takes parents word, how do they know if that is the real parent?] it is near the the border. Is that the case? This then would be an issue of immigration and disclosure, but I’ll let melin the attorney answer that part of it, if she wants to.
Thanks for your inquiry. Birth certificates are not required for our pre school classes. If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to e-mail me. Doug Evans, Director of Parks & Recreation
>>> <Johnsbury1@aol.com> 12/27/99 02:13PM >>>
Do you require birth certificates for your pre school program?
The link I provided was to the Parks Department of the City of Grapevine, Texas, not the school district. The preschool programs the city offers has no association to the public school system. (In Texas, our school districts are separate government entities that operate independently from the city/county governments.)
Grapevine is a suburb of both Dallas and Fort Worth in North Texas. It’s not near the border, not that means that immigration is not an issue here as well.
The link I provided was to the Parks Department of the City of Grapevine, Texas, not the school district. The preschool programs the city offers has no association to the public school system. (In Texas, our school districts are separate government entities that operate independently from the city/county governments.)
Grapevine is a suburb of both Dallas and Fort Worth in North Texas. It’s not near the border, not that that means immigration is not an issue here as well.
My problem here is the fact that you had a couple of weeks to pro-actively attack the problem. It would seem to me that this would be plenty of time to talk to the teachers, principal etc. and get a more diverse program in place. There could be logical explanations for why this was not done, e.g. your wife didn’t communicate the conversation to you, you didn’t fully understand that there would be no diversity etc. Perhaps you could address this.
Spiritus Mundi said:
I agree, if you are talking Middle School or High School. Here we are talking about a pre-school. All of the pre-schools I have had dealings with were little more than organized play groups where kids did art projects, sang songs, and maybe played counting games or letter recognition games. The main point of pre-school, IMHO, is to get kids used to being with other kids in a structured environment, and give the care giving parent a bit of a break. The teachers do things that will hold the attention of 3 to 4 year olds for as long as possible – maybe 10 minutes on a good day. In December, in a predominantly Christian area, kids are going to be most interested in Christmas stuff. It is too bad that this pre-school seems to have had no other projects to do, but unless it is forcefully pointed out to them, I doubt they even think that they may be offending someone.
David said:
Hmm, I am relatively new here, but isn’t that what the pit is for? Majormd did not clutter up this thread with her opinions of you, she went to the appropriate place to do so, and readers of this thread can go there or not. I did note that she responded on this thread to your answers. While you may disagree with what she said, she did say it in a reasonable and moderate manner including making the point that she may have misunderstood you:
I hardly think the above shows immaturity on her part. Perhaps she should have waited longer to start her pit thread. But I can see her point quite clearly.
BTW, I have read her post in the pit and except for the title, it is a pretty tame flame.
A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath.
Oh, and as to the whold Birth Certificate debate (though I don’t see what the heck it has to do with the subject at hand,) in my experience when I put my kids in general things like preschool ballet or gymnastics classes, no birth certificate was needed. When I put them in age specific things like t-ball, swim meets etc. I had to provide proof of age. When I enrolled my kids in a private pre-school (run by the YWCA) I had to show proof of age, they did not want any 2 year olds. I don’t recall having to show them shot records there, but to get them into kindergarten (public school) I had to have a birth certificate and shot record.
A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath.
