Here’s another question for brother David to ignore and not answer. Next week will be the millennium, according to the Roman calendar we use, if there are any pre school activities will you not allow your son to join in, since it is based on a Roman calendar? If you’re gonna be a purest might as well go all the way.
Y2K, BFD
People seem to be focusing exclusively on my fifth point, in which I argue that distributing valentines and putting on holiday pageants is outside the core mission of public schools. The consensus response seems to be that pagenats, etc can be used to reinforce skills that are a part of that core mission. I agree. However, many other projects would serve at least as well without raising issues of religious association.
Now, I understand that the law of the land presently allows religious holidays to be celebrated in their “secular form”. I did not think we were discussing what is presently legal. I thought we were discussing what is “right”. Now, obviously people will disagree on what is right; that is what makes a debate possible.
What I am interested in, though, is whether anyone disagrees with the assertion that even supposedly secular celebrations that are tied strongly to a significant religious festival carry undeniable overtones of religious association. If not, do people still believe they should be taking place in our public schools?
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
OK PEOPLE MY TURN!
I believe that if you, no wait, if a person, nah, um, er, ah,…
never mind :0
SPIRITUS MUNDI asks:
Heck yes, I disagree with this. The fact that Santa, reindeer, lights, presents, and any number of other secular add-ons are associated with Christmas (which is for some but by no means all celebrants a religious festival) does not imbue them with “undeniable overtones of religious association.” That’s why I have already said:
In fact, I don’t really understand the counter-argument – that is, I don’t understand the justification for saying that secular symbols somehow become religious simply if they associated with a holiday that may be for some religious. The holiday cannot and does not change the meaning of the “symbols” in question and they simply are not religious. The old custom of burning a Yule log, for example, is pagan in origin but is undeniably associated with Christmastime. How then does it become a religious symbol, or does burning it (or drawing and coloring it) – without more – somehow constitute advancing the Christian religion? The fact is that it may have something to do with “Christmas” due to timing and association, but it has diddly to do with the Christian celebration of Christmas. Same with the other things we’ve been discussing.
If you want to split out the moral and the legal (or, as you put it, the legal and the “right”), fine. I don’t generally do this, as it is my own personal philosophy that the two ought to overlap significantly. If you wish to make such a distinction, however, then you will have to explain to me why using secular symbols of a significant national holiday to teach cutting, pasting, and coloring – without touching on religion at all – is not “right.”
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
Jodi, YOU are awesome! 
Jodih,
I split the legal and the moral because thy are not and have never been identical. At various times in this country it has been legal to own other people as property and illegal for a woman to vote. You philosophy may be that they ought to overlap. I tend to agree. that does not change the fact that they often do not. That is why I address what is right not what is legal. I trust that you understand, now.
Which Christians are you talking about? I know several Christians who use the Yule log as part of their Christmas celebration and imbue it with a religious significance. The cross had religious significance in some cultures before it was adopted by Christianity. That has not prevented it from becoming a Christian symbol.
However, if you want to rely only upon historic symbolism then surely you would agree that Saint Nicholas is an obvious religious icon. After all, “The holiday cannot and does not change the meaning of the “symbols” in question.” Right?
These are really secondary issues, though. I did not say that the secular symbols are imbued with overtones of religious celebration. I said that the celebration carries overtones of religious association. If I hold a “Winter Festival” that uses iconography that is undeniably associated with the celebration of a religious holiday then my festival will also be associated with that holiday, no matter what I call it. The idea that we can somehow separate Christmas into secular and religious pieces is absurd. Yes, there are strong secular influences on the way Christmas is celebrated in this country. Yes, there are even many non-Christians who celebrate Christmas for a variety of reasons. That does not change the fact that the holiday will always be associated with the mythological birth date of a religious leader.
I have no problem with anyone celebrating Christmas in any way they choose. I have no problem with schools taking note of this important social holiday with voluntary extra-curricular activities. I do object to anything in the required curriculum which supports any particular religious view as “right” (read bith moral and correct).
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Spiritus Mundi posts:
then posted:
OK, SM - I’ll take you up on points 1-4 (I’ll assume point 6 was not really a debate issue)
Given. This is also the law of the land - one of those areas cited by Jodih where legal & moral perspectives have come together. No debate from me here.
Christmas, as celebrated by some people is a Christian holiday, yes. As celebrated in the malls & on Main Street & in the schools it is not a religious celebration. As stated by many posters, many features associated with Christmas were actually pagan Yule/Solstice symbols, to which Christians (after unsuccessfully trying to get the “heathens” to abandon them) attached Christian symbology much, much later (Holly symbolizing the crown of thorns for example) I do find it ironic that Jews & some atheists who don’t believe any of the core beliefs of Christianity won’t have anything to with Yule logs & Christmas trees because there is Christian lore associated with it. I stand by my previously posted definition of Christmas:
I really tried to take the big-picture view on this one. Any thoughts?
This is the crux of the issue. For some people, yes, this is their opinion. It is not right or wrong, proveable or disproveable. It IS possible to say that some of these symbols, however, are at least as associated with old pagan traditions as they are with the date assigned by Christians to celebrate the birth of their Savior. It IS possible to say that they are no more strongly associated with the birth of Christ than black cats and jack-o-lanterns are associated with the Pagan/Wiccan holy day of Samhain (which coincides with our Halloween). And it is possible to judge from people’s observations of these holidays whether their objections are truly to everything that has to do with any religions holidays being used in pre-school or school curricula, or whether their objections are purely directed against the Christian majority, and specifically Christmas.
No debate on this point here. I agree that holidays which are popularly celebrated throughout America shouldn’t be singled out for inclusion or exclusion.
I’m on a roll, so I might as well take on point #5 as well.
As a service member, I’ve moved around a bit. In Germany, American-run schools included teaching about German culture, unique German holidays, and different German traditions associated with shared holidays. Here in El Paso, schools include many traditions unique to the Hispanic culture that surrounds us, as well as traditions stemming from the Southwest Native American culture which is still a vital part of this region. My children would be less well educated without this exposure.
I can envision an alternative educational system in which kids went for fewer hours a day for intense lessons in core subjects, then had the opportunity to participate in art, music, PE/sports, & other extra-curricular activities. This, in fact, is the European model of education. It also means that these activities are not accessible to all students, regardless of income, as school-sponsored activities are here in the States. It’s a trade-off & IMO, a bad one. But I’d be happy to discuss this further with you as well.
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
Court Jester asked:
I asked my wife to talk to the principal about it the next week (the principal was in charge of the overall program, since it involved several different classes that all meet at the same time, so I thought that was the best way to go). Unfortunately, the principal was busy each time my wife tried to talk to her when she dropped off or picked up my son. Maybe we should have tried harder, and maybe I was naive, but I guess I just did not expect almost the entire program to be Christmas songs, without any other holidays mentioned (I mean, certainly since they recognized that there were non-Christians in the class, they would try to do something to include them, right? Wrong.) Also, one of his teachers was sick for at least a week of that time, which made it difficult for my wife to talk to the other one, though I know she was focussing on talking to the principal anyway (indeed, that may have been one reason the principal was so busy – if memory serves, one of the other teachers from another class may have been sick at the same time, so the principal was probably running around a lot doing backup duties). Incidentally, I should note that my wife was trying to catch the principal while also lugging around our younger child.
So, like I said, maybe we should have tried harder to catch her at other times. But it’s the first time we’ve had to deal with something like this and, frankly, it caught us a bit by surprise. Live and learn.
Incidentally, I mentioned this briefly in a message of 12/16: “My wife did try to talk to the principal about the ‘holiday’ program, but the principal was always busy when my wife inquired (I suspect this was true – not just trying to avoid her).”
The other problem is that 2 weeks is really not enough time to pro-actively do a whole lot. These are 3-year-olds who are memorizing songs. They only meet twice/week (that might not have been clear) and thus two weeks is only 4 classes. If the teachers knew there were students who might feel left out (which they obviously did), they should have given us more than one day’s notice that the kids would begin learning the songs and practicing in the next class.
David B: I think what you are doing for your child is laudable. I wish my Dad would have been as pro-active in my life.
Phaedrus
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.
Phaedrus
Is it pro-active in a positive sense and was it done in a timely fashion i.e., shouldn’t he have been more diligent in the pre school he chose and checked these issues out ahead of time? Is this pro action helpful to his child, or more of a problem than a cure?
David seems confused as to what is and is not a religious symbol. He also seems more concerned with anything to do with Christmas than the secular symbols of other holidays. Isn’t the menorah a Jewish religious symbol? I see that in EVERY Hunakkah display but I do not see a cross in any of the Christmas displays. David, do you object to the display of menorahs? Another question for him to avoid, which adds to the dishonesty of this entire thread.
Y2K, BFD
–Krispy
It’s been awhile, but I’ve finally spewed beer all over my screen.
There’s always another beer.
Beeruser said:
Isn’t that alcohol abuse?
John John: All in all I like your points and I think you’re a reasonable, intelligent man. Many times I have agreed with you and the others as I read this thread.
You said,“Is it pro-active in a positive sense and was it done in a timely fashion i.e., shouldn’t he have been more diligent in the pre school he chose and checked these issues out ahead of time?
Is this pro action helpful to his child, or more of a problem than a cure?”
If David’s oversight created some problems perhaps it might have been avoided by acting otherwise. I dunno. In any event it is not my place to judge David’s actions when it comes to his son.
I have passed judgement on his actions as a poster here because his moderator/poster because his position/actions as a poster have, at times, affected my argumentation in other threads.
Whatever feelings or thoughts I have about him as a poster in no way cloud my thinking when it comes to his actions as a moderator. When he is asked to correct threads and other techical duties, he performs them timely and with more than a fair amount of expertise.
If he is irrational when it comes to his family, perhaps it is because he loves them so much.
I believe, in some sense, he has a legitimate beef.
Beeruser: Yes, I saw the humour too! What does that do to your keyboard?
Phaedrus
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.
What it all comes down to for ol’ Cyberian, in the end, is that David is not raising his child the way Cyb thinks David should be raising his child. As always. Furthermore, Cyb is absolutely flabbergasted that anyone in their right mind would not like Christmas.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Thats a misdemeanor(not liking Christmas). If you refuse to celebrate it,its a felony. I just saw a house on Clifton that had a big white lettered Bah Humbug!(was that you,pl?)
Phaedrus.
Well, yeah, it really is, which is why he posted what he did, vis a vis his son. Ultimately, David asked for a discussion, which he has not lived up to, about HIS actions. That IS the discussion, what little there is of it from his side.
Y2K, BFD
Isn’t that alcohol abuse?]]
No, it’s part of a purification ceremony.
Majormd:
Thanks for the reasoned response. We really seem to disagree just in a couple of areas.
Point 1 – we agree
Point 2 – Your position seems to be that since some aspects of teh Christmas celebration are secular or have pagan roots that the holiday itself has lost its religious character. Shall I assume you feel the same about easter, passover, etc. Are there in fact any holidays that you believe have a predominant religious character? Having just lived through another “secular” Christmas I can assure you that I found very few examples of people celebrating this holiday without making any reference to Christ’s supposed date of birth. Perhaps your experience in this is categorically different than mine. Perhaps you have been surrounded by people who celebrate Christmas without ever mentioning Christ. Perhaps your communities have always had purely secular celebrations that in no way generated the impression that the reason for the holiday was the mythological birth date of a savior figure from a particular belief system. (As a side note, I was also stationed in both El Paso and Germany. The above description does not match my memories of either place.) Sorry to pound the point so hard, but I find it amazing that someone who has grown up in the same country that I have truly finds no religious association in the supposedly secular celebrations of Christmas.
point 3 – Is your point that because a symbol has origins in an earlier religion that no later religion can give it a new meaning? Well, I guess that let’s you eliminate nearly all of Bhuddist iconography in a single sweep, but I cannot say that I find merit in the argument. The cross had significance long before Jesus was executed; do you argue that it is not a Christian symbol? As to your second point. I assure you that I would argue just as strongly that Samhain or Passover not be given official sanction in our public schools. Strangely enough, those issues rarely come up in this majoritarian culture in which we live.
point 4 – we agree
point 5 – The only real difference I see here is that you equate “teaching about” with “celebrating as part of the curriculum”. I have no objection to schools teaching about any and all religious faiths and celebrations, not do I object to reading Gift of the Magi . I don’t even object to the school choir singing Handel’s Messiah as a vocal exercise, so long as all members are allowed to opt out without pressure. I do object to requiring students to take part in an exercise whose primary purpose is to celebrate a holiday that has religious significance. Study, yes. Celebrate, no. I don’t know how much clearer I can be.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
pldennison said,
“What it all comes down to for ol’ Cyberian, in the end, is that David is not raising his child the way Cyb thinks David should be raising his child. As always. Furthermore, Cyb is absolutely flabbergasted that anyone in their right mind would not like Christmas.”
Phil, if this is true it is sad. However, I reserve judgment on the matter.
Yours,
Phaedrus
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.
John John: David said in the OP,
“To anybody who says that Christmas is just a secular holiday, to anybody who says it’s no
big deal, to the stupid judge mentioned above who thinks Santa is a great lark and everybody is better for having Christmas, I would have wanted them to see my child’s face
when he told my wife that he wanted to go home from a place he normally loves to be at.”
To me this not only indicates a father’s love for his son, but it also indicates that he wanted the issue of what it would be like to experience Christmas from a viewpoint outside “our” experience. Frankly, that is something that never occured to me until I read his argument. I am not saying he is a model poster, but what I am saying is that he was asking others to judge his idea about whether Christmas should be celebrated in school. I don’t think he was asking us to judge his actions as a father. As much as I have seen David’s posts I have never seen him ask anyone to judge him.
I haven’t made up my mind on the issue, because I have never had to confront my feelings about the matter honestly and openly inside myself. I see his point and I see yours.
For the moment I am inclined to agree with ALL of Spiritus Mundi’s points.
Still, your points, Melin’s, and particularly, Jodih’s are VERY compelling at times. So I am still trying to come to terms with the matter for myself.
You are welcome for the compliment, it was sincere.
Please continue.
Phaedrus
ps I know what the law says in this matter. What I am trying to decide if whether it is a good law.
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.