Civ3 Players, what do you think?

I picked up Civilization 3 this evening (along with Planescape: Torment for the old lady) but I didn’t get much chance to play it before work - I had an alarming bug where the screen would go black after the introduction movies. Apparently I was unable to Alt-Tab out of it or use Ctrl-Alt-Del to bring me back anything resembling my desktop, so I had to turn it off manually a few times trying different things (like forcing resolutions in the .ini, changing my desktop rez, etc.) which was alarming though this is not as traumatic in XP as it is in 9x.

Though the box said it was compatible with XP, I eventually tried using the emulation mode to trick the game into thinking I was running 98, and that works fine. I started out as the Greeks as they seemed like they would fit my old Civ and Civ2 playing styles, and got trounced in prehistoric times by the Romans, and this was on the easiest difficulty (true, I was a bit too confident in my Hoplites). On my second time I got to 800 AD or so, got beat on by the Romans a lot but held on to my capital, ran into some insane bitch named Joan d’Arc or something who stole my horse producing colony and then beat me down. Decided I should read the manual before trying again, watched something very forgettable on TV, and came to work.

This looks like it will be fun and have even more replay value then Civ2, and I liked the whole Culture factor - even though I was getting beat up all the time, in my second game at least the French and Romans admired my culture.

Does anyone have any interesting Civ3 strategies or stories to share?

Ooooh. It’s out now. I’m hoping I get it for my birthday in a few weeks. Drool

OK, I’ve played a few games so I can give my first impressions.

Resource management is MUCH more important in Civ3 than previous versions. If you don’t have access to luxuries and resources essential to build certain units, and you are unable to trade for them, you are working at a serious handicap. On the other side of the coin, if you happen to be the only person with access to horses or iron on your continent, you will be a major player if you can hold on to them. It makes war more interesting in that you have to defend territory as well as your cities - if you destroy the roads connecting a resource to an enemies city, they cannot use it. I was fighting the Egyptians and having a hard time of it because we were on roughly equal technological footing and he had more cities. I noticed that his iron resources were near the edge of his territory, so I sent in some swordsmen and destroyed roads connecting it to his network. Now he can’t turn out some of his more powerful units at this point in the game, and sued for peace just before I took one of his cities. This factor also makes diplomacy much more important, as often you are forced to trade for resources you just don’t have in your area - if your enemy convinces your source for horses to stop selling them to you, no more war chariots for you.

AI - the computer opponent is SMART now. In Civ2 I would frequently have a civilization declare war on me, and I would just sit back and do nothing, the enemy would send a unit every other turn or so against one of my cities to be slaughtered by my defenses, and eventually ask for peace. In Civ3 the enemy uses strategy. It will amass a large army before making an offensive. It will send damaged units back to their territory to be replenished and replace them with fresh ones. It will never attack a city unless it has a good chance of weakening it, instead the AI will seek out weak points in your defenses, and will do it’s best to isolate you from resources you need to carry on the war. All in all, the computer makes a worthy opponent, even on the easier difficulty levels.

The game places a lot more emphasis on the early and middle portion of the game. In Civ2 my strategy frequently was to build a medium-sized network of cities and concentrate on research until I got more advanced units like tanks and planes, and then attack. I hardly ever built catapults, horsemen, or galleys - I’d just build a few of a decent defense unit for each city and hold off until later. This won’t work in Civ3. You may be able to stay out of wars early in the game, but the barbarian tribes are smarter and more of a threat, and with all the diplomacy going on you will want a strong army to make sure nobody tries to take advantage of you - I found that when trying to make deals with neighbors who were superior in strength they would ask for more than they would give, while you could get fairer deals if you had some military might. If you have a rare resource that other civilizations want, you better be ready to deal. If you have the only source of saltpeter when the other civilizations discover gunpowder, they will want to trade for it, and if that fails take it. ‘Well, if I’m the only guy who can make guns that won’t matter’ - right? Nope, if the AI is facing an opponent they can’t beat, they will work to form alliances and attack you simultaneously. You’ll lose a lot of trade, and even if they can’t take your cities they will do damage to your infrastructure.

Though the AI is much better, war doesn’t seem to be as cutthroat as in Civ2. Wars don’t last too long - they CAN’T last too long because there is a ‘War Weariness’ factor that starts increasing the discontent in your cities. THis coupled with the fact that you probably won’t have as many luxury items coming in to keep your morale up because of trade embargoes and you will soon have cities in states of unrest, which stops productivity and eventually leads to destruction of existing improvements or even revolt, if you try to keep a war going too long. Luckily, the computer opponent is usually willing to make a deal. Wars tend not to destroy civilizations, just alter the balance of power. At the end you may all still have the same cities, but one will be paying tribute or providing a needed resource to the true victor. In Civ2 the AI seemed to be driven by the need to eliminate all opposition when it came to starting wars. In Civ3 wars have more realistic objectives, and when these objectives are met the war will usually end. It truly is a tool of diplomacy.

There are more ways of winning now, as well. Eliminating all the other civilizations will win you the game, though I imagine that would be extremely difficult to do. Having 75% of the land within your borders will also win it. You can also win the game by winning a UN vote, though getting a seat on the UN (once it is build) requires either buildling it yourself or holding 25% of the territory in the game. You can also win by building an interstellar spacecraft as in the original. It’s possible to take over territory without conflict now, as well - your civilization and it’s individual cities have a Culture Rating, which is increased by having certain improvements (like Libraries or Temples) and Wonders. Each of these things will increase your Culture Rating over time, so the longer you have them the better it is - it means more to have built the Pyramids back in 3000 BC than to have built several wonders late in the game. THe higher your culture rating, the farther your borders will extend from your cities, and it effects how other civilizations see you. If you have a high enough culture less cultured cities near your borders will switch sides, especially if your borders start to surround them.

As to the interface, graphics, etc. - not that important to me, at least not in this kind of game. The interface is pretty different in some ways, and it took some getting used to, but now that I have learned it I think it’s superior in most ways to the earlier version. You can do a lot from the regular map screen that would have required going into the city screen in Civ2, like changing what was being produced, making more entertainers in times of unrest, etc. About all you really need the city view for is reallocating your citizens on the map, and in my experience the AI usually handles this about as well as I would so I rarely do so.

I like it a lot, obviously. I feel they really improved on the earlier games while keeping the same core concepts. You will have to adjust your strategies if you played the earlier Civilization games, but it should be fun doing so. Buy it if you enjoyed the earlier Civ games or if you enjoy turn-based empire building games.

Haven’t gone out and bought Civ3 yet, but Torment rocks!!! I love that game and have probably played it through six or seven times since I got it.

Doh!

It’s not out here (UK) for a month or two.

Keep your impressions going though, because that’s interesting.

It’s a lot more interesting, to say the least. I’m not sure if I like the change in duties between Settlers and Workers. To be honest, it didn’t bother me all that much to have Settlers doing all the work, because they were basically cities on the hoof. It’s also sorta neat that non-combatants can be taken by enemy forces in some instances-I’ve had to reclaim a Catapult and a Worker from the Iroquois.

The Bombard attack is less than impressive as well, in my opinion. I had three catapults firing nonstop at one of their cities, and I never managed to do more than one damage to the defenders a turn. It looks like you’d have to have a damn battery of at least 10 to take out 2 defending Spearmen.

Some of the Wonders are much weaker, now, while others have increased in utility. It also seems to take FOREVER for an advance to be completed. My usual strategy of building the Pyramids, the Great Wall, and the Great Library have been shot to pieces, mainly because I can’t seem to get all the advances necessary for them (I almost always play the Americans, so I now start with Masonry, but there are still I think 2 advances between that and Contruction, which is necessary to build the Great Wall).

The introduction of Small Wonders is a nice twist, although I’ve yet to be accomplished enough to see any of them. I, too, like the territory expansion thing, but for all their talk of enemy cities defecting to your culture I haven’t seen that happen yet either. I’ve surrounded a level one city with some of mine that were higher levels, and they haven’t as much as said, “Hey, nice gardens you’ve got over there.”

Overall I’m pleased, though. I didn’t think it would be possible to make this more of a thinking game, but Sid has really some through on this one. Now if I can just get an entire day to waste playing it, I’ll be happy.

Excellent review Badtz! I was pretty played out on Civ2, but I’ll pick this one up on your reccomendation.

Gotta agree with DarkPrince also. “Planescape:Torment” is absolutely topnotch. A rather sad and grim storyline that was perfectly in sync with the setting.

I’ve been waiting for this, but now I’ve got no time. You can’t play Civ like I post (betwen renditions and compiles), and I’ve got some serious family issues for when I’m not at work (FIL is dying), so I’ll just have to wait.

Y’all enjoy for me, now hear?

Started a new game as the Russians, and I have cleaned up so far - it’s 1720 AD. I spread fast at the beginning, I believe I had 4 cities before 3500 BC, spaced to cover plenty of territory yet close enough to cut down on corruption. I went for Literature first, and got a bit of a scientific edge - yet despite this I still didn’t get an unusually high level of technology early like what happens in Civ2 (where I frequently start the Manhattan Project in the mid 17th century). I shared a medium-sized continent with two other civilizations, the English and the French. The English were pretty cool with me, probably because I kept scrapping with the French. Anyway, soon after I’m sharing a border with the two other civilizations, the French and English start crossing my borders and establishing cities in the few regions that were outside my official borders. I worked a deal with the English for Right of Passage since they were fairly dependent on my for luxuries and iron, and they built several cities on my western coast that eventually joined after being overwhelmed by my culture - I had several wonders by that time and I tried to get every cultural improvement I could in my cities.

Anyway, I told the French to get the hell out of my territory and they declared war on me. A large army of horsemen ammased on our border (apparently they were planning something) looted and razed one of my smaller border cities. They had a large army but they weren’t as technologically advanced - my knights, longbowmen, and pikemen thrashed their horsemen, archers, and swordsmen, taking back two of their newer cities they had built on my side of the continent and two more from his side as punishment. After smoothing out my border with France I made my demands for peace. I got everything in their treasury, all their maps, and a 10 gold per turn tribute payment for an indefinite period of time. The British built a city in the place where the one the French burned once was, but it soon switched sides back to me because it was surrounded on three sides by my cities, and two of them had a high culture level.

A few years after that I developed gunpowder, but had no saltpeter. The game doesn’t show you where resources are until you can use them, which prevents you from snatching up all the land with aluminum and oil in ancient times so you can dominate in modern times. I scouted around and found the French had a small desert city to the south that, judging from it’s name, was once an Egyptian colony (I had no contact with them yet). It had a deposit of saltpeter outside of it. The French were trying to build a road through my new borders between their holdings in the west and some to the south of me, like the city that I wanted, so I told them to get out of my country. They said they would but didn’t. I told them again and then declared war on them (it hurts your relations with everyone to just attack without warning). I sent some knights down to attack the former Egyptian colony and the French cut across British territory to do a sneak attack on one of my less protected but very important cities. I called up the Brits and gave them The Republic in exchange for them declaring war on the French with me, and the French pulled back from my city and attacked one of his, taking it. In the meanwhile they were sending units across my border at various places and destroying my roads and mines. After taking their saltpeter resources I took them back to the bargaining table, this time they refused to pay tribute, all I got from them was contact with the Egyptians and Romans on the continent to the south.

Became a Republic after that war, and then a Democracy in the late 15th century AD. I worked on my technology, and also established relations with the Egyptians and Romans to the south, though I couldn’t trade anything but information with them because my navy couldn’t cross deep water yet. Around 1690 I developed my civilization’s special unit, the Cossack, which is basically an improved Cavalry. The French were still mostly medieval, though they did have longbowmen now, no knights though. I decided to take Paris, which was about the only city of theirs worth having anyway. This time I’ve got the Brits working with me from the start, their border with France is in the north but Paris is in the far south so I figure they can keep the French from doing too much damage to my border cities while I push my offensive down the coast in the south - I didn’t think they could take any of my cities now that I had gunpowder, but they could do a lot of damage to the infrastructure around the edges of the areas without knights. I had about 6 units of Cossacks stashed in Rouen, along with 3 units of cannon and 3 musketmen units, to garrison the three cities I planned on taking. Things weren’t going as well as I hoped when I had to stop and come to work.

It’s an extremely addictive game. Flipsyde, it takes a while to culturally assimilate another city, and usually it has to share more borders with you than anything else - none of the border cities adjacent to mine have switched sides. Try building your first few cities far enough apart that there are a few squares between them that can’t be developed. When the continent starts getting crowded later the computer will often build colonies there and they are quickly assimilated if you have decent cultural improvements in the cities near their borders. I’ve noticed that they sometimes fall in quick sequence after you make big advances or lead a successful war (in the one where I took 4 cities from the French 3 British colonies switched sides). I think the friendliness of the neighboring nation matters too, British cities seemed quicker to switch sides than French ones.

So far I’ve played 2 games out, both on Chieftain, even though I’ve played Civ & Civ II for years–just wanted to find out what was different before diving in.

[hijack]

Has anyone noticed that Theory of Evolution doesn’t actually work? Like, at all?

[/hijack]

-SE

I haven’t got it yet, my best game yet has only got up to 1720 so far, with technology fairly appropriate for that time (which feels so weird to me as a Civ2 player).

Corruption is a much bigger factor in this version. You could conquer the world, but you wouldn’t be able to produce anything significant at a majority of your cities because of the high corruption, you will have to be shipping military units in from the home continent, spending extravagant amounts to build stuff there. You can fight this somewhat with lots of roads and a high culture rating, but your empire is always going to be based around your original cities. I haven’t got Communism yet, which may be what you need if you want a far-flung empire that is productive even in it’s outer reaches, as it divides the corruption evenly between all your cities.

I know what I’m asking Angie to buy me for Christmas! Dunno if I can wait that long though. :smiley:

Can any of you actually get an aircraft carrier to work? Do they have it basically as just a transport for your planes to move from one city to the other? I can’t seem to get the bombers to respond to any commands while on the sea.

This post (see above) was better than real history!

What a game. :cool:

As an update, I eventually took Paris but it took a lot longer than I expected - I was using battleships by the time the war was over, and it took considerable bombardment from off-shore to weaken it enough to take with my cossacks. The French were able to re-take some of their cities during the war but I ended up getting them back. I also had the Romans declare war on me for unclear reasons, but the most they did was scratch some of my battleships by throwing galleons against them in the waters southeast of Paris.

Things got troublesome in the early 20th century - I managed to get the technology for tanks and other more advanced units late in the 19th century, but I had no supply of rubber - most of my portion of the continent was totally deforested by then. Nobody else had a use for rubber yet so they didn’t know if they had it or not, so I had to use a risky trick to find some - I gave all the other civilizations the technology to use rubber. This made them all like me more (the French, who had been ‘Furious’ at me for the last 1000 years or so were now merely ‘Annoyed’) and I discovered that the Indians and the English both had a source of rubber - oh, forgot to mention that I made contact with the Americans, Aztecs, and Indians after the last war with France, the three of them were sharing a large continent in the east. The Indian had two sources of rubber in the heart of their very large empire, and they couldn’t trade it with me because it wasn’t connected to a city with a harbor. They were fairly advanced (mid-19th century level approximately, riflemen and cavalry) and I knew there was no way I could take it from them. The English source was on a smallish island with 4 smallish cities just north of my continent. They only had one source so they had no excess to trade. I tried first to talk them out of the city that had access to it (Liverpool) but there was no way - I offered them a half-dozen formerly French cities, 100 gold per turn, and every technology I had and they still wouldn’t give it up. I hated to do it since they had been my friends for so long, but I had to take Liverpool. There was no way I was going to let someone on my continent build mechanized infantry and tanks when my best offensive unit was the cossack.

I loaded up three transports with cossacks, riflemen, and artillery in the late 1930s, and sent them along with three battleships and an aircraft carrier to Liverpool. I landed and occupied the source of rubber quickly to prevent them from turning out more advanced units, but found out Liverpool was already stocked with with a few units of modern infantry - defense of something like 12, my cossacks offense was 6 I believe. I bombarded them with my battleships, artillery, and bombers for several years before I had them softened up enough. The side-effect of that was I killed 1/3 of the cities population as well. My former English cities started protesting and stopped producing early on, and after a few years my other cities started too. I had to end the war before my empire fell apart - I probably could have drawn it out longer if I switched governments from a Democracy to something more war-friendly like Monarchy or Communism, but didn’t want to risk that period of anarchy between governments, especially when British cavalry were taking out the connections between my cities and luxury items across my empire. In 1960 I sent in the cossacks. I lost 10 units of cossacks before I was finally able to root out the two weakened units of infantry, and instantly asked for a peace treaty. The English gave me one with no concessions on my part, in fact they probably would have paid me to end the war but I felt guilty enough. I ended up giving them lots of technology and money as restitution.

Things were fairly peaceful after that, at least on my continent. The Indians wiped out most of the Aztecs after I gave them the technology to exploit their abundant rubber resources. The Romans wiped out almost all the Egyptians, in the end there were only a few Egyptian cities in an island chain between the three continents. The French ended up becoming a close ally and trading partner, and signed a mutual protection pact with the English. I spent the next few decades modernizing my defenses and trying unsuccesfully to find a source of uranium, and in 2006 I won a cultural victory.

I am really impressed with Civ3. It is all I had hoped for and more. The only major issue that I have is it takes forever to play a complete game. There were times in Civ2 that 2-3 hours was tops, now it is more like 8-10. Perhaps as my skill gets better, it will move faster.

Anyword on the multi-player patch?

I was right, I couldn’t wait. Bought Civ3 last night and immediately started the tutorial to reacclimate myself to the Civ world. I got to be Cesar on a world with a few pretty large landmasses and a few small ones. Discovered that I share one of the large landmasses with the Germans, Aztecs, the French and another I can’t remember at the moment. Got up to circa 1670 before I had to go to bed. I was able to build a few wonders: Great Wall, Pyramids, Great Lightouse, the Colossus, and Magellan’s Exposition. I like being able to see exactly where territories end. My emprire is not very large, which is not unusual for me. I tend to take a while to expand and having four civilizations on one continent didn’t help. I was able to assimilate two towns on my boundary; one German and one Aztec. Once my Romans discovered gunpowder, a supply of saltpeter turned up near my former German town. Woo-hoo! Beefed up my defenses with musketeers. So far, my Romans have been like the Swiss in that I have yet to go to war with anyone other than barbarians. At one point, everyone except me had declared war on the Germans; the Aztecs have since made peace with them. Just before I went to bed, Joan D’Arc asked me to ally with her against the Germans. Considering that the remaining German towns on my borders had been taken over by the English, I agreed. Having assimilated a pair of towns, my territory is situated so that the Germans and Aztecs are to the northeast and everyone else is to the west and northwest. Ever since everyone declared war on the Germans, they all have to pass through my territory. Would be nice if my empire was strong enough to charge everyone a toll to use my roads!

BTW: I was able to convince Angie to cover the cost of Civ3 even though I am already playing what was supposed to be a Christmas present. Had to remind her that I gave her an early present last year so she wouldn’t go looking for her other present. :slight_smile: Besides, there aren’t really any other games I’m interested in. I had been interested in Motor City until EA decided to make it online-only.

I finally got the city I was waiting for to come over to my side. Thanks for the tips, Badtz. I’ve gotten pretty good at getting cities to defect now.

Wondering something about the random opponents, though-I always play the Americans, and I always set my opponents as random. But, without fail, I always get the Iroquois and the Aztecs in my game. I’ve started easily 12 games, and I’ll be damned if I don’t always spend the time after my diplomatic meetings getting the smoke form Hiawatha’s peace pipe out of the furniture or picking up the feathers Montezuma’s headdress dropped.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Gaah, what a game. My entire strategy for winning Civ and Civ 2 is completely shot (which was get to Democracy ASAP, build a city on the coast with lot’s of mineral resources, build Shakespeare’s Theatre there, then send out scads of naval and transport units to take over enemy ports and control the seas).

I tried starting on Regent, and had to bail. I’m playing the Germans at Chieftan now, and things are going pretty well. I share a continent with the French, who have for a long time been polite to me, in awe of my culture and science, etc. They don’t seem to be a bother.

I gotta say though that this “no irrigation except from rivers” is driving me batty. Another thing that is annoying - only cities with certain attributes can build particular Wonders. I can’t remember what all the necessary attributes are, and I can’t figure out an easy way of determining which city can build which Wonder.

Sua