C'mon, I can take it!

The BBQ Pit
61

Homer’s little whine reminds me of an incident that happened many years ago. As a female in a predominantly male profession, I have sometimes been accused of having been given preferential treatment because of my gender or because my father was prominant in the same profession. Shortly after I was hired by a large corporation, one of my friends, Laura, related this story to me.
Laura was at a company reception with one of my classmates, Phillip. Phillip was a not very bright young man whose father worked for the company. Phillip proceeded to tell my friend that the reason I was hired was because I was a woman and because my father was prominant in the profession. Laura asked Phillip what his GPA was. He told her 3.0. She then informed him that the company had a policy of only hiring people with GPA of 3.5 and that she knew I had attained that GPA. Phillip was the one who got hired because of his father’s connection. He also was fired a year later because he shot off his mouth to one of the big bosses.
It’s fairly often to find out the same whiners who gripe about the advantages of minorities and women, often are less qualified. Of course, they then claim that the same minorities or women got preferential treatment in the past to get the grades or high ratings, etc.

The lesson: those who complain the loudest are often the very ones who can’t make the grade themselves.

62

Homer – ten points on the last paragraph; truly, an excellent slam!

However, you really DON’T want to be embraced. By me or anyone else. You don’t want to make friends with anyone, or so it seems. If I really thought you wanted my help, my compassion, my friendship I would extend that to you in an instant.

I’ve tried, on other threads, to extend a hand of friendship to you and had it slapped down hard. It is your choice. You can attack me for having ideals; no I don’t always live up to them but at least I can admit when I’m wrong, promptly apologize, and try to do better in the future.

My post with all the ha ha ha was because you spew so much hate and rage that all I can do is laugh. It is a defense mechanism. What else do you expect others to do in the face of all your hatred? Commiserate? I can’t. I don’t feel that way about the world. Sometimes, my anger is piqued and I post my rants. But I can always be brought back down to a better place by reading and understanding the other posters here.

Best!
Byz

63

speakeasy

What an interesting rhetorical device. Shall I assume that this is what you resort to when you are unable to defend your position with facts or reason? Hmm, let’s examine the rest of your post.

I thought we were discussing affirmative action and quotas. That, at least, is what your original whine (inaccurate as it later turned out to be) was about. Would you like to discuss how to change people’s hearts? Okay, defend your position that removing the protections of affirmative action will bring miraculous enlightenment to racists and sexists.

You obviously do have problems with some such programs.

It is demonstrably bad for the least qualified segment of the white male population, a group to which you have claimed membership. You have yet to demonstrate, or even argue in a meaningful manner, that it is harmful to anyone else. It is demonstrably helpful to those minorities who receive opportunities they would otherwise have been denied

I note with some interest that you have pointedly ignored the many inconsistencies and misleading statements which I pointed out in your previous posts. from this I conclude that you are intelligent enough to realize that you have been caught telling lies, but you lack the integrity to admit it. Feel free to disabuse me of that notion, if you can.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

64

Byz, while we’re at it, props to you, too. Couple zingers in there, occasionally.

I think my side of the affirmative action argument is nearing it’s end. I have been wrong at times, yes, and I have worded myself wrongly quite often. BUT not to whine, really, I don’t care, but I truly have been, purposefully or not, misinterpreted in quite a few respects. Even when I make a point, it is passed over for a statement involving a few bungling fingertips. Oh well. Seriously, though, answer me this one, as I requote myself.

Does this not bother anyone else on here? Is this not an example of racism and discrimination?

A bit off topic, but I would like to congratulate those who have taken their time to pop onto this debate, merely to share a wonderful witticism, or ‘scathing’ insult, directed more often than not at me, then again to flit away, leaving nary a pinch of fire in their words. Truly, yours are the most enlightening of all posts.

–Tim

We are the children of the Eighties. We are not the first “lost generation” nor today’s lost generation; in fact, we think we know just where we stand - or are discovering it as we speak.

65

[I note with some interest that you have pointedly ignored the many inconsistencies and misleading statements which I pointed out in your previous posts.]

First things first. You’re cute, but I only have time to say what I have to say. I hit it once and then move along unless I think you didn’t get it. Also, on the slim chance we haven’t zoned everybody into a coma, an itemized tit for tat makes deadly reading.

[What an interesting rhetorical device.]

“Sure I have a sense of humor! Pickled in alcohol right here on my desk.”

[I thought we were discussing affirmative action and quotas.]

That was the hijack.

[That, at least, is what your original whine (inaccurate as it later turned out to be) was about.]

Get bent.

[[The way that often gets done is to force organizations to lower the bar for some people. That’s bad for everybody. ]]

Core argument alert. Let’s break it down a little. Lowering the bar for some people is bad because:
If there is a pattern of such qualification bending that is detectable by a large number of employers, that does a real disservice to the majority of similar-appearing applicants who do know their shit. The vast majority of people I’ve known who happened to be minorities didn’t need the friggin help. It’s bad for the people it is supposed to protect.
It’s especially bad if it plugs into an existing mutual prejudice that we all wish would just dry up and blow away.
Martin Luther King, Jr is one of my heros and I happen to share his dream. I have always lived and believed that race and religion does not and should not matter. I’ve made friends with a lot of interesting people of all colors from a variety of interesting places. I’ve heard stories of injustice and racial hate and wondered how it could be. Then my government tells me that they are stacking the deck against me on the most important career move of my life. And they’re doing it in a way that would be a supreme court case if you just have everybody switch hides. It stinks and you know it. You call that whining? Blow me.
If we are looking for disadvantaged people to help, why not look have a look at the lowest income segment of the population without regard to race, religion, or gender? The trouble with codifying a preference for one or another group is that bureaucracies get entrenched and don’t respond to changing social conditions as well as they might. If you gotta do it, having a preference for helping the lowest income group would track the true need more accurately and be harder to politicise.

[Feel free to disabuse me of that notion, if you can.]

Oooh, no. I would never dis anyone. How 'bout if I just abuse you instead?

66

The deck is “stacked against me” because I’m white and male. Hmmm, I think Richard Pryor used to have a joke about that.

67

pl,do you Really think Jesus was a commie? Maybe a socialist? I thought He came across as a benevolent dictator.

68

I’ll answer your question, Homer.

First of all, a big part of Chris Rock’s act is, “I looove black people, but I HATE niggers!” Richard Pryor used to do the same kind of material. In fact, probably a lot less of their act is dedicated to talking about white people than you think. Either way, they’re equal opportunity, believe me you.

Second, I suppose if white people were once a legalized underclass in this society, there might be a point, but they weren’t, so there isn’t.

69

Okay Homer, yes, I see your point. I, as a white woman, would be shunned if I went on stage and made blatantly racist comments; however, so would these comedians. There is a difference between racism and making a joke. It’s all in the delivery.

Chris Rock is funny. Yes, he makes comments and jokes about white people; he makes more about people of color. Yet his comments are FUNNY and are not designed nor intended to brutally hurt others. Really, think about it, the LAST thing a comedian wants to do is alienate a whole group of people who are likely to buy his records and see his movies.

I’m not sure if there is something specifically said or done by any comedian that really bugs you. There are some stand up acts that I find absolutely appalling. Andrew Dice Clay tends to spring to mind. I’d rather rip out my own genitals with a fork than EVER have to watch that tape of him and his supposed “jokes” again. Am I too sensitive about his cracks about women? Yep. I am. If you find that you are too sensitive about cracks about your race than, hey, don’t watch comedians who engage in race comparisons.

Best!
Byz

70

Question by Homer:

“Thanks for your understanding, Okatym, but Why why why why WHY do you think I’m blaming ‘whole groups’ for my ‘obstacles’?”

Answer by Katy:

Homer,
I think that because you said:
"I will hate every single illegal immigrant, lawn care working, rusted out econoline driving, dirty, sweaty, greasy, mexican bastard that I see pulling up into this $200 a month apartment complex to walk in to his filthy wife preparing food for his twelve unwashed children. I will find out who this is. But each and every one will be hated equally until I know exactly who it was that did this to me, that violated me and mine."

Sorry if I presumed too much from that perhaps misunderstood statement. HMMMM…

(Maybe you should stop digging that hole.
I think you’re nearing China.)

-Katy

71

Yet another evasive post from speakeasy. If ever a name seemed appropriate. . .

This is not an argument. It is a string of unsupported assumptions.

Let’s review. You are a liar, a whiner, and have minimal qualifications for the jobs to which you aspire. You lack integrity and the most rudimentary of rhetorical skills. Your sense of humor is as juvenile and irrelevant as your arguments. In short, I find you eminently representative of the positions which you espouse.

I am so pleased to make your acquaintance.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

72

Speakeasy,

Spiritus Mundi said to you ‘I note with some interest that you have pointedly ignored the many inconsistencies and misleading statements which I pointed out in your previous posts.’

You replied ‘First things first. You’re cute, but I only have time to say what I have to say. I hit it once and then move along unless I think you didn’t get it. Also, on the slim chance we haven’t zoned everybody into a coma, an itemized tit for tat makes deadly reading.’

I completely agree with Spiritus, and would far rather read thoughtful replies than get more rhetoric like the above. ‘I only have time to say what I have to say’ - what a joke! Find the time to debate properly.

Then comes a revealing clincher from you: ‘I’ve heard stories of injustice and racial hate and wondered how it could be. Then my government tells me that they are stacking the deck against me on the most important career move of my life. And they’re doing it in a way that would be a supreme court case if you just have everybody switch hides. It stinks and you know it. You call that whining? Blow me.’

So now we see that the whole history of the Civil Rights movement, the struggle against white male domination of the Presidency / judges / police / business etc. compares AS NOTHING to the episode where you got overlooked on a career move.
And, yes, that is whining. Of course you have already responded by abuse, instead of reasoned argument.

Try this news story (Private Eye):

After a black man died during an arrest by 8 white police officers, his family called for a report on the death. (The victim was apparently just ‘acting strangely’ outside his front door when the police were called.)
So far two police forces, the Government Department that runs the police and the Prosecution Service have all declined to investigate on the grounds that it’s someone else’s responsibility.

I could give a lot of other cases, but doubt whether you would consider the above sort of disgraceful prejudice as important as your own ‘suffering’.

73

Are you surprised? I mean, that’s usually how folks treat whiney loser ASSHOLES. Whassamatta? You thought maybe you were a better class of whiney loser ASSHOLE? < snicker! >

Uh, you misspelled “reasonable, thinking human being.”

StoryTyler
I am too in shape! :::muttering::: Round is a shape.
C’mon up and see me sometime.

74

Spiritus:

[This is not an argument. It is a string of unsupported
assumptions.]

(Sigh) Argument n 1: a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true. A reason or reasons offered in proof, to induce belief, or convince the mind; reasoning expressed in words; as, an argument about, concerning, or regarding a proposition, for or in favor of it, or against it.

So I did offer an argument; in fact one that was succinctly stated, well supported, and reasonably self evident. You in turn offered:
[Let’s review. You are a liar, a whiner, and have minimal
qualifications for the jobs to which you aspire. You lack
integrity and the most rudimentary of rhetorical skills.
Your sense of humor is as juvenile and irrelevant as your
arguments. In short, I find you eminently representative
of the positions which you espouse.]

(Sniff) Sulpher! My favorite. twinkle You shouldn’t have!
[… liar…]

Because I refused to repeat myself on command? Because I insist on discussing those pesky important philisophical points rather than parse my statements for you? Beyond lame.

[… whiner …]

Asshole. I lived it, I’ll bitch about it if I want, and you can fuck right off. Are you following me on this? I hope that’s clear enough so that even you can understand.
[… have minimal qualifications …]

Interesting. Are you clairvoyant? Then you already know where you can stick it. I didn’t say what field I’m in or what my qualifications are. I did say I was doing fine, so you don’t have to stay up late tonight worrying about me. I just know that’s a big load off your mind.
So to actually summarize.:

Your statement:
[Proponents of affirmative action maintain that
racism and sexism are still serious problems in this
country, that they are so serious a problem that we need
to take extreme measures in order to combat the severe
economic consequences of these attitudes.]

My replies:
[[I have a problem with specifying that a certain percentage of acceptance/hires/etc must be of minority racial status. The way that often gets done is to force organizations to lower the bar for some people. That’s bad for everybody. If we are looking for disadvantaged people to help, why not look have a look at the lowest income segment of the population without regard to race, religion, or gender? The trouble with codifying a preference for one or another group is that bureaucracies get entrenched and don’t respond to changing social conditions as well as they might. If you gotta do it, having a preference for helping the lowest income group would track the true need more accurately and be harder to politicise.]]
The basic difference in philosophy here is that you seem to be of the opinion that racial hatred will never go away, so therefore a government policy that generates more racial hatred is no problem. My thesis is that if the goal is an egalitarian meritocracy, then only a lack of racial hatred within each person will achieve this.
[I am so pleased to make your acquaintance.]

Likewise I’m sure. In spite of your snotty, supercilious, affected attitude, you are able to state your case and offer at least a smattering of supporting logic and argument. In a twisted sort of way it has been a pleasure Pitting myself against you. Perhaps our threads will cross again.
glee:

Here is a disclaimer that I trimmed out of a previous post, I guess it seems appropriate now:

The above discussion is about the merits of affirmative action and is in no way intended to discredit other important advances that have come from the civil rights movement.

Segregation, voter’s tax and tests, color based biases of every kind, all of those things are wrong and I would never argue in favor of them.

And I still insist on saying what’s on my mind rather than what you have commanded.

75

I think these threads reach a critical mass at about 20 posts. Everything intellectual is said by then, the rest is just irrelevant anger at the opponents misunderstanding their previous posts.

Just a thought, carry on…

76

WTF do you mean by that, huh? You actually think I’m a space alien now? How dare you insult my dreidel!!

77

Fairly well put. I am not a proponent of any one specific affirmative action program, I think each needs to be dealt with individually, since there are differences between programs which are all dumped into the “affirmative action” bucket. But I am a proponent of the concept in general. Two small changes to your statement above, though: I am not of the opinion that racial hatred will never go away, I am of the opinion that racial hatred will not go away anytime soon. And I don’t believe that affirmative action programs, in general, generate more racial hatred simply by their existence. I believe that those who don’t understand the reasons for the programs in the first place may be more inclined to hate those that benefit, but that’s an education/understanding issue, not something inherent in the programs (as noted above, this may not hold true for any one specific program, I’m simply commenting on the concept in general).

As this was not the situation prior to the implementation of any affirmative action programs – and the lack of this situation was, in fact, the reason for the implementation of said programs – how, exactly, do you plan on legislating a lack of racial hatred within each person?

Rich

78

speakeasy
I grant your point. I should not have said you had not made an argument. I should have said you had made a good argument.

statement 1) If there is a pattern . . . then that does a real disservice . . .

statement 2) [ I know many minorities who need no help ]

statement 3) It’s bad.

Weak as it is, the “people I know” assertion of statement 2 is the only thing approaching evidence in this “succinctly stated” and “well supported” argument. Of course, it is entirely unrelated to the assertion of statement 1 and does nothing to demonstrate the conclusion of statement 3.

As I have said before, there are some interesting points to be made on the issue of quotas. In your better moments it even seems possible that discussing them with you might be worthwhile. I think VegForLife has done an admirable job of delineating a position from which a reasonable discussion can begin.

No, because you made numerous statements that were deceptive, misleading or untrue.

I’ve never met a whiner who hadn’t lived the things they were whining about. Label it how you wish, it sounds like a whine to my ears. By all means, though, lace it with some more profanity. That will surely demonstrate the adult and rational nature of your position.

No, I am cpable of constructing a logical argument.

  1. The number of white males penalized by quotas is equal to the number of minorities who benefot from them.
    2)Only those minorities who would not otherwise be qualified for a position can be considered to have benefited from the quota.
    3)The most qualiied candidates in each group will be hired.
  2. The white males who suffer from the quota system are those with the least qualifications in a given pool.

Since you have whined about your sufferings under the present system, I conclude that you fall into that group. Since you specify that your suffering came during “the most important career move of my life”, I conclude that you are minimally qualified for that career. Of course, this might be a situation where we refer back to [ liar ].

To put it simply, because those who suffer from poverty and those who suffer from racism or sexism are not identical groups. Affirmative action programs are designed to combat racism and sexism. Welfare programs are designed to combat poverty.

You might try doing the same.

I have never commanded you to speak, let alone to speak specific words. However, since you started to spew forth of your own accord I am justified in drawing conclusions about you from what you have written. It matters not to me whether you refute those conclusions, but I see no reason to change them until you do.

Liar. Whiner. Loser (just in case minimally qualified was too supercilious for you).

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

79

Hmmm, just in case anyone out there is unable to extrapolate from context.

Should have read:
I should have said you had not made a good argument.

80

Speakeasy,

you said ‘The above discussion is about the merits of affirmative action and is in no way intended to discredit other important advances that have come from the civil rights movement.
Segregation, voter’s tax and tests, color based biases of every kind, all of those things are wrong and I would never argue in favor of them.’

Fine, I fully agree. The problem is that these biases still exist, and I’m afraid that you implied that one attempt to counter such ingrained prejudice should be dropped because it affected you.
I think that you and Homer really are complaining about discrimination against poor people. (OK, I understand thatmoney doesn’t make you happy - but it usually helps!)
But white males just have to offer the usual stuff to get jobs. Some minorities don’t even get an interview. As I posted earlier, affirmative action might mean the 98th best white male might ‘lose out’ to the best minority candidate. Surely you need to be competing with the 97 white males ahead of you, rather than complaining about one talented candidate.

You said ‘And I still insist on saying what’s on my mind rather than what you have commanded.’

What? I haven’t tried to hypnotise you or told you what to say.