C'mon, I can take it!

The BBQ Pit
41

Girl Next Door, you are pathetic.

You don’t agree with me, so I’m a troll. Yeah. Right.

If everyone who you don’t agree with is a troll, out to get you, oooh! boogey boogey boo! Look out, it’s the boogey man! You don’t agree with his views! He’s a troll! He’s only here to make you angry! Feed me! Feed me, Seymour! Let me drink your blood! I’m a creepy racist guy! Never mind the fact that I’m not! Use blanket terms! Refuse to think! Let everyone make your decisions and determine your viewpoints for you! Boogey boogey boo! Look at me, I jump out from behind the dresser and scare you! Hide under the covers! Oh no, here comes the troll! Cover your ears!

You, madam, are not of the brightest sort. A person is not a troll simply because you disagree with them. A person is not a troll because they piss you off.

Think what you want, but I’m quite sure I’m neither racist, nor a troll. I am a person, a person who posts on this board. A person who seems to be quite hated. Why am I hated? Because I hold views that you would consider volitile. You refuse, with your tiny little mind, to wrap a few cells around the points I make. It is easier for you to simply dismiss me, curse me as a troll. It is so much simpler to live your simple little life in your simple little house with your simple little views. It’s too hard! Ooooh! Thinking is too hard! I can’t think! It hurts me! I get my views fed to me by the evening news! ::sobbing:: No! Don’t make me think for myself! I don’t want to consider alternate viewpoints and alternate positions! I live in a one sided world! It’s black and white! There’s no gray area! What’s a gray area? He doesn’t make sense! What are these words he’s typing? Something about… umm… equality? What’s that? My TV doesn’t tell me what to think about that. He must be a bad man. An evil, evil bad man. Go away, bad man. You hurt my head.

You. You VILE person. There are others like you. Millions of others. You’re SOOO liberal. You’re SOOO openminded. But you’re NOT. You’re liberal, sure. You accept what you’re told to accept. You’re openminded, sure. Your mind is open to everything you’re told to be open about.

But, OH NO! Here comes something that I’ve not been told to think! What do I do? I know! I’ll deny the validity of the points that are being made! I’ll call the person a racist for pointing out TRUE STATEMENTS about the situations in the United States today. I know! I’ll hide under this blanket eating Teddy Grahams and singing bubble gum pop until someone knocks on my door, coming to tell me what to think. It’s Superman! Only, he’s made of wood. And has a big nose. Wait. That’s Al Gore. Yeah! He can tell me what to think! It’s too hard to do it by myself!

Girl Next Door, THINK FOR YOURSELF! I cannot stress this enough! DO NOT accept what you are told by the media. Do not even blindly accept what you are told by me, or anyone else. Everyone has the capacity to be wrong. Everyone has the capacity to purposely misinform. Use your own mind, your own thoughts, your own feelings, emotions, experiences, and life. Make decisions for yourself. Re-read my posts in this thread. Do not blanketly dismiss them. Mull them over. Think about it. Realize how much sense they may truly make. Yes, you may disagree with some of the things said. But you CANNOT deny that they are true. You CANNOT deny that I am making valid points. You CANNOT dismiss me as a ‘troll’ because you do not want to take the time and effort to THINK!

You are SOOO enlightened. No. You are NOT. I’m trying, geez, I’m trying. But everything I say… Everything I say. Ignored. Dismissed.

Deal with it as you will.

–Tim

We are the children of the Eighties. We are not the first “lost generation” nor today’s lost generation; in fact, we think we know just where we stand - or are discovering it as we speak.

42

I’m gonna do it before someone else does.

Nyah nyah nyah. You just did. ::pbbbt::

Yes. I did. I snapped. I couldn’t take it anymore. It is impossible to reason with the unreasonable. It is wrong, truly wrong, to lower yourself to the level of the unreasonable. But I snapped. The pressure was too much. I’m sorry. I’ll try harder next time, I know how perfect you all expect me to be.

–Tim

We are the children of the Eighties. We are not the first “lost generation” nor today’s lost generation; in fact, we think we know just where we stand - or are discovering it as we speak.

43

Of course, you are taking your quote out of context. You said that in the midst of an ebonics thread in which pld was explaining why ebonics was a bonafide dialect. You decided that someone describing something that belongs to African American culture as a good thing equated to being a shot at the “white man’s stature”.

I notice after he shot down both of your straw man arguments you never went back in the thread to spread your truth about the suffering the white man has had been forced to endure by the “‘better educated’ set”.

Now, you put the quote in a new context and you make it into a debate on Affirmative Action. Sure, you have people who agree with your line of thought on this matter. But, it has nothing to do with where the quote came from. Unless you are trying to say that Ebonics is studied as a dialect because of some quota, is that what you are saying? Is that why you decided to start your diatribe?

Does the study of an African American dialect, “tear you down”? Does it “limit your future”?

Oh, I guess not. Maybe its those greasy Mexicans, you love so much. You know, the ones who stole your precious stereo? Maybe they are exceeding their quotas when they take their “lawn care working” jobs to feed their “twelve unwashed children”. Is that what you are saying tears you down, and limits your future? I am confused, first they are greasy and unemployed, next minorities are taking your job and your financial aid. My My. Things must change in a few months.

If you had started these affirmative action arguments on a clean slate, and not on a lazy accusation you made in the Ebonics thread, it would be much easier to take you seriously. But, no, you take that comment and pretend it was a warranted protective measure. As if, it was some thread that openly suggested the lynching of all white men.

How far, exactly, do you want the “White person” to advance?
Isn’t a large majority of the power in the United States enough for you? Do you need to start an organization that will keep this power, is that what you are aiming for?

The NAACP exists to ensure equality for minorities.
What would the NAAWP do? Do you really think that the pendulum has swung so far that whites don’t have equality? That they require a NAAWP? The last time I looked at the senate it had more white people than any other race. By a large margin. Oh, thats not where you mean?
The debate on quotas is important and its warranted, its an imperfect solution to a problem that existed, and still exists. But, the idea that a NAAWP needs to exist to counteract these imperfections is far more than an overreaction. It is the clan. Its only goal would be to maintain the status quo that has given whites the ability to stay in power while keeping a foot firmly on everyone else’s throat.

I guess you never heard of scholarships for Italian-Americans, or for Irish-Americans. No, they must not exsist, because any scholarship for a white person would be “racist”. Wait, are you saying the scholarship has to specifically state black people aren’t allowed to get it? Thats what you want? Is that what would be fair?

Umm, I don’t know, I don’t often hear about the struggle for a classless society. I think the stock market is going too quickly for their to be thoughts of a classless society. Wait til a couple of internet millionares lose their shirts, then the call will be out for true wealth distribution, and a classless society.

Rediscover it. Pick a new spot to stand.
pat

44

Excellent post Pat. Boys, it is true that quotas sometimes result in reverse descrimination. It is also true that the polio vaccine killed asmall percentage of the children inocculated; should we have abandoned that effort, too? Are you seriously arguing that reverse descimination is a more serious problem in today’s America than racism and sexism combined? Do you think more people suffer loss of opportunity for being white and male than for being a minority. Open you eyes. You have the opportunity to make some valid points about quota systems and reverse descrimination, but you come off sounding like a couple of racist whiners. Please note – I refer to the appearance you present. Homer speaks for himself clearly enough, and since Pat has already shed a light into that dark corner, I guess that just leaves speakeasy.

Hi.

A valid proposal, delivered without rancor or pouting. Many reasonable people defend the same position. The danger, of course, is that racist attitudes are deeply ingrained in our society, and if we do not at least record demographic information on applicants and hires it is impossible to know whether an organization is practicing a pernicious pattern of descrimination.

Let me get this straight: 1600 SATs, National Merit Scholarship, high GPA, and unable to get into a school. Either you are leaving something out, you did make put forth a serious effort to matriculate, or you are lying.

So, now you are in school, with your 1600 SATs and your NMS, but a minority is getting more money than you are. Boo hoo. Did you see the details of his awards? Do you know for a fact that they were racially preferenced? Or did you just assume that they must be because he was a minority and drove a nice car? Oh, wait, that would be a racist assumption, wouldn’t it. Many people at the college I attended had higher financial aid awards than I: some almost certainly were beneficiaries of the system, others were athletes or had special talent scholarships for the arts, some had more financial need, and some had just scrambled harder and done more legwork to find obscure scholarships and awards. Speaking of which, how much work did you do to find alternative awards? Did you just sit back and expect the college financial aid office to do everythng for you? I only maxed half of the SATs, and I forfeited my merit scholarship by entering military service instead of going straight to college, but I still managed to find awards enough to pay for a good school. How smart did you say you were?

Look at the details you choose to emphasize in your anecdote. What possible relevance does it have that you stood in line for two hours and were late for your part-time job? Ah, but the minority person just “breezes up”? How? Were you waiting in the wrong line? Did no one come to stand behind you in line for the whole two hours? Was he smart enough to time it better? Did he just get lucky? Are any of these details relevant, or do you just include them to paint an inflamatory picture?

Wait, that would be pandering to racial stereotypes, wouldn’t it.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

45

Homer,

you come across as an angry person, so I don’t know if this will help but I’ll try.

You said ‘glee, no, hell no. Those (white male) fatcats are not disadvantaged. They’ve got the world in their hands. I’ll tell you who is. Me and my own. I never claimed that the white (male) rich were at any loss. In fact, just the opposite’.

Earlier you said ‘WHY? Why am I denied so many things because I’m WHITE? Why is it a crime to be a male? What is wrong with being a white male?’.

This shows you post contradictory rubbish.

You said ‘Think what you want, but I’m quite sure I’m neither racist, nor a troll.’

PLDennison posted a collection of your sayings:

'1. “I will hate every single illegal immigrant, lawn care working, rusted out econoline driving, dirty, sweaty, greasy, mexican bastard that I see pulling up into this $200 a month apartment complex to walk in to his filthy wife preparing food for his twelve unwashed children. I will find out who this is. But each and every one will be hated equally until I know exactly who it was that did this to me, that violated me and mine.”

  1. “Taken by someone who hasn’t known what it’s like to finally be out of school, to graduate, to be free of childhood. Someone who probably doesn’t even speak a good assemblage of my own native tongue.”

  2. “Oh, btw, an annoying teacher we all hated and made fun of and tried to make cry in
    high school, Mrs. Stoner, is in her 60’s and still a virgin”

  3. Your thread on “Why are there no attractive retards?”

OK, this is racist. (I’m sorry someone stole your CD player, but it wasn’t the whole community. Saying you hate them all is RACIST).

In reply to Phil, you said ‘Phil - Oh, wow. That’s like a ‘Worst of Me’ list right there. You did your homework. I think we can all admit to posting things here we have come to regret. And yes, the Holiday Collection part was funny.’

Yes, Homer, that was extremely bad. You don’t seem to have learnt from it though. Oh, and I’m sure orangecakes said it was funny because PLD had completely exposed your racist rantings, NOT because your comments were funny.

You said ‘How is it better to accept a less qualified person into your school, simply because he’s a certain race?’

Well this is certainly a valid point. Of course I think this happens all the time with WHITE MALES getting all the best choices. Let me give you some personal anecdotal evidence.

I’m sitting a logic test for a well-paid programming job. There’s also a pleasant intelligent Indian guy, who’s emigrated to the UK and wants to work hard. The test starts with ‘give the next number in the sequence’ questions. Fine. Then there’s a section on ‘complete the following English proverbs’. Well (as you might say) ‘that sorted out the guy of the wrong race’. Of course he spoke English fluently, just didn’t know many proverbs.
I can also tell you about the female Indian trainee who did get in (the rest of us were white, male + English). The interviewer told us later ‘she had great tits, who cares about her scores.’

Do you think this happens a lot?

To finish, you said ’ Yes, you may disagree with some of the things said. But you CANNOT deny that they are true. You CANNOT deny that I am making valid points.’

Yes I can!

46

First of all, there IS an NAAWP. It’s run by David Duke. You can read all about it at http://www.naawp.org .'Nuff said.

Second, I wonder what makes speakeasy and Homer so sure they’d be getting all this financial aid if the recipients weren’t? Maybe they could find a more qualified white person, too.

47

Bzzzzzt! “I’ll take ‘Lying’ for 800, Alex.”

Let’s see. I didn’t get a 1600. I was not a NMS Semifinalist, let alone scholarship recipient, I did not have a stellar GPA. Oh, as if it matters, I’m an anglo male.

I got into all the schools I applied to. And received academic and need-based scholarchips at all of them. Hell, I could have gone to UNC-Chapel Hill if I’d been willing to take a part-time job and live cheaply (out-of-state tuition to UNC is a bear and a half).

You’re not a troll, Homer. You’re just looking for someone else to take responsibility for the problems in your life, and you care way too much about skin color.

A Lily-White Primer:

xxoo
-andros-

48

What’s up my ass? Gee, could it be your head?

My candy coated world… um, care to expound on that one? I deny nothing; I just don’t agree with you. Perhaps the reason you have never gotten ahead in life is because of the simple fact that you are a jerk. This has nothing to do with the color of your skin; it has everything to do with what is in your heart and mind. But it is a very convent excuse, “See, it’s not my fault my life sucks; it’s because of affirmative action!”

At least when things go wrong in my life I can take an honest look at my own participation in the problem. Rather than looking for the problem without you might try looking within.

Best!
Byz

49

Oops! convent should be convenient! Although a convent may not be a bad idea!

50

Homer & Other Angry White Guys:

I understand that you feel like you are being penalized for being white males. I realize you are angry and can understand why you may feel that way. Regardless of that anger though, when you blame whole groups for your obstacles, you lose credibility and respect.

There is probably not one person on Earth who has always gotten a fair shake in life. I hate to be cliche’, but life isn’t fair. The people we admire throughout history, though, are admired because (regardless of the unfairness of their situations), somehow not only persevered over their obstacles, but did it without ever crying, “hey, no fair,”.
You can persevere gracefully, or you can hate everybody who looks like someone who either screwed you over, or got a break that you didn’t get.

HMMMMM…Time to grow up, I guess.

51

Spiritus Mundi:

Greetings, humanoid.

[The danger, of course, is that racist attitudes are deeply ingrained
in our society,]

You can’t change a man’s heart by forcing his hand.

[ and if we do not at least record demographic information on applicants
and hires it is impossible to know whether an organization is practicing a pernicious
pattern of descrimination.]

Never claimed to have all the answers, but I still can’t see why the phrase ‘double standard’ is always a dirty word… except in my face. So here’s a few suggestions, and I’m sure if we put our heads together we can come up with more:

Take demographic information - after the student is accepted in a color blind way.

Audit the organization's hiring policies and practices. A clear pattern of passing over qualified minority applicants in favor of less qualified whites is grounds for legal action.

Raise my taxes - please! Now that I'm rolling in dough I'd be tickled pink to pay an extra percent or two to invest in our country's future. I've been a good investment for the government; the extra tax they've been raking in has already offset the cost of my grants, I'm paying back the loans with interest, and from here on in it's just gravy for them. Hey, spread the joy and pass the beer.

If some minority group seems to have a pattern of problems making headway, let's look at what we can offer to help them up to speed. I am in favor of making higher education accessible for as many people as possible.

[How smart did you say you were?]

I didn’t. No, my SAT scores weren’t 1600 - quite. I was accepted academically at every school I applied to including several private universities. Unfortunately I was not able to go straight from high school to college due to other obligations. I an excellent state university on the usual public grants , loans, and part time jobs. I also did my homework and landed a couple of small private grants too, as well as the NMS. They got tired of looking at me at the financial aid office. But it sure helped and I have been glad to donate back to those trust funds. So don’t lose any sleep over me chincho, I’m doing just fine.
[Ah, but the minority person just “breezes up”?]

I don’t give a rat’s ass that the guy stood in a shorter line. Maybe there weren’t as many people in his alphabet range that day. I never remembered to ask.
[Did you see the details of his awards? Do you know for a fact that they were racially preferenced? Or did you just assume that they must be because he was a minority and drove a nice car?]

He later became one of my drinking buddies. He is a hell of a nice guy, we eventually ended up hanging out together a lot. About half of his extra was because he was on a sports team and half was because he was clever enough to choose the right parents. And yes, my family was poorer than his family. He didn’t think it was exactly fair either, and I didn’t blame him a bit for taking what was offered. Besides, his stabbing pangs of guilt made him buy me a beer every once in awhile.

We both agreed that a problem with the current system of lowering the bar for some people is that it cheapens the degree in a subtle way. When employers see a pattern of people walking in off the street with credentials that measure up on paper only, that makes it harder for the ones who really do know their shit to get a break.

So why not offer help to anyone who has trouble making the grade? Why not make that color blind too? Who says it’s a zero sum game?
PS - Byz! You noticed I exist! Have I ever mentioned how much I worship you?

52

speakeasy – of course I know you exist… I remember not being able to get a beer back during prohibition! Now, as for your worship… may I direct you to my altar? :wink:

As to your post: One of the best quotes I ever read was a fellow poster’s sig line. I have read it before and it amazed me when I saw CanadianSue use it because it has been one of my personal favorites:

We are all just angles with one wing
the only way we can fly is to embrace each other (paraphrased)

Yes, on it’s face it can sound trite. But really look at that and think about it. I cannot fly unless I embrace others and take them on my flight. I cannot fly without another. Life doesn’t have to be win-lose. It can, and most times, should be, win-win. I can only excel when I lift other people up. Sure, some people get ahead by tearing other people down; but in the end, their victory is hollow. They rise to the top but there is no one there to share it with.

I’d rather give and take and have us all be winners than stomp and crush my way to the top and be alone. Everyday, all the time, some people will have an “edge” over me. Sometimes I have it over them. That is life. As okaytm said, “No one said life was going to be fair.” This is not really a cliche anymore, it is a truism. That’s just the way life is. Rise above it. Embrace other people, take them on your flight… watch yourself and other people soar… some people will never understand this. They fail to grasp this basic principal and they are forever relegated to the sidelines, screaming, about how unfair life is. Pity.

Best!
Byz

53

Okay then.

Pricciar. Please, take your white tipped cane and direct yourself towards Girl Next Door’s second post. That is where from I quoted myself. She brought it up. Not I. She is the one who was ‘horrified’ by my statement. All I did was redefine and expound on my statement.

Second, I have only about half an hour a day to read this board. I’m a busy guy. I have never returned to the Ebonics thread, never seen my ‘straw men’ shot down, and never had a chance to reply.

No, studying ‘ebonics’ tears me down in no way other than that money, those grants, and the funds from taxes, mine and yours, are spent studying ‘ebonics’, instead of a more deserving field, such as space exploration, medical research, etc.

Perhaps, when you are a better qualified person, who is passed over for college scholarships, job offers, etc., simply because you are not a minority, perhaps then you will consider yourself to have lost some small bit of equality.

Sorry, I failed to mention every single possible ethnic origin. My fault, really. I was so sure you all would understand.

I am a mutt. I am not pure of blood, being of only one country of origin. Does that make me less worthy for support?

Is it just me, or do most scholarships for black people SAY that they are for black people? If they don’t, why don’t white people ever get the scholarships? Let’s look at FASTWEB and see how many scholarships for blacks can be obtained by someone who is not black.

Again, my fault. I should have used the phrase ‘color-blind’ like speakeasy. No one wants a classless society.

Yes! Now you’re thinking like me! Let’s ban cars… people die in them! Let’s ban guns! People get shot! HEY! While we’re at it, I’ve got an apple, you’ve got an orange. Let’s compare them, too!

Reverse discrimination? I’d like to be reversely-discriminated! Wouldn’t that mean that I’m given things simply because of my coloring? Oh. You mean discrimination against white males. Say what you mean. Why should it be reverse? Was the previous discrimination merely forward?

And this is so how? I’m discriminated against, they are not. And I did qualify myself. Perhaps I should do further. I’m not rich. I come from ‘simple’ means. Perhaps thats enough distancing from the ‘fatcats’ I mentioned previously to be of good to you.

Again, I am being purposely misinterpreted. No, what I said was not funny. The way Phil presented it was. How often do you see a list of (in the eyes of many of you, apparently) racist, angry, and discriminatory remarks labeled “A Holiday Collection?”

While general knowledge is something everyone must have, I must agree this was a piss-poor selection to be on a test. And the interviewer was a sexist bastard. Makes us all look bad.

Ahh. Phil. I’ve been waiting for you. Nothing like a visit from the right hand man of liberal propoganda and drivel.

But thank you for informing me. I am now distancing myself from David Duke and the NAAWP.

Yes. A liberal such as you, better to be molded and folded, perhaps. Nothing like taking the party line, right down the gullet. To quote ‘Spanky’s Uncle’, “Yum Yum! Eat 'em up!”

I have better taste than to stick my head up a diseased sheep’s ass. Have you ever seen what comes out of those things?

Thanks for your understanding, Okatym, but Why why why why WHY do you think I’m blaming ‘whole groups’ for my ‘obstacles’? I’m not blaming black people for this. Or Jews, or Indians, or whoever. What pisses me off is the buracracy, the bloated, stupid, wasteful government, who thinks this is doing ‘good’. This is not helping anyone! Why doesn’t anyone see that? It’s not helping you, it’s not helping me, and it’s not helping anyone who’s unqualified, yet still getting ahead. They’re gonna slip and fall one day, and if Phil’s not there to hold them up in his hot air balloon, there’s a long, hard fall.

How right you are. But why should I help to elevate someone who is undeserving, a societial leech? Someone who is underqualified, and doesn’t care? Someone everyone else is pushing up, simply to keep the top/bottom white/minority quota ‘equal’? That, dearie, is pulling everyone else down.

And,

Oh, yes, Byz! I can feel it! I can feel it! It’s filling my wings! I’m rising, yes, rising. You, you’re lifting me up! I’m SOARING! Thank you, Byz! Thank you for all that you’ve done for me! I feel like a new man. Lifted, elated, elevated. You’ve risen me up, helped to lift me above the unenlightened masses! Oh, I cannot thank you enough. I owe you my life!

I AM THE KING OF THE WORLD!

Yes, then, back to reality. You accuse me of being a hypocrite or some such rot. Who was it that told me to find a mirror? Do the same.

–Tim

54

Homer,
Sir, you are a nitwit and the proof of it comes out everytime you write.

Hey, Byzantine–if you truly feel so warmly about your fellow human beings, why do you slam “Jerry’s Kids?”

55

Homer,

You said ‘I have only about half an hour a day to read this board. I’m a busy guy.’

Ok, a number of people think you post without thinking things through - can you not work out a system that gives you more time to consider what you say BEFORE you post?

I said ‘This shows you post contradictory rubbish.’ (concerning white males)

You replied ‘And this is so how? I’m discriminated against, they are not. And I did qualify myself. Perhaps I should do further. I’m not rich. I come from ‘simple’ means. Perhaps that’s enough distancing from the ‘fatcats’ I mentioned previously to be of good to you.’

For goodness sake, Homer, READ OUR POSTS! You stated ‘white males’ were discriminated against. I posted that they dominate our culture. You say ‘I’m discriminated against, they’re not?’. This is indeed contradictory rubbish.
Oh, you mean RICH white males! (Can’t you see how you annoy people with your sweeping inaccuracies?).
Well it’s true that capitalism certainly favours rich people over poor. If that’s what bugs you, I think you should campaign for higher income tax, not make derogatory remarks against other destitute people.

You say ‘While general knowledge is something everyone must have, I must agree this was a piss-poor selection to be on a test. And the interviewer was a sexist bastard. Makes us all look bad.’

Absolutely - I fully agree! I’ll tell you another one. A wealthy black man driving a posh car in London has been stopped 47 times by the police. (Apparently they think he’s a drug dealer, since sarcastically how else could a black man earn money?). He’s never been charged or cautioned, since he’s a law-abiding citizen. He complained to the Home Secretary (in charge of the police). The complaint is being investigated (don’t hold your breath). Then the Home Secretary’s assistant (a black member of Parliament) revealed he’s regularly stopped too.
Meanwhile a white, rich politician was accused of insider dealing. His wife is on the board of a company about to be taken over. He buys £70,000 worth of shares on Friday and sells them on Monday when the takeover bid rockets the share price up. The police investigate. They conclude (memorably) that ‘there is no proof that Lord Bowman spoke to his wife about this’.

To me, Homer, this shows how deeply both racist and ‘one law for the rich’ attitudes are ingrained in our society. I’m happy to campaign against them both, but you need to think carefully about what you say, because you’re hitting the wrong targets.

56

I am well aware that it came from Girl Next Door’s post, I wasn’t aware that her quoting of it somehow nullified the original context.

Yes, thanks for agreeing with what I said. You redefined the statement so it was more palatable to others. So it actually made a little bit of sense.

You know, if you don’t know what a phrase means, you should look it up, not repeat it back to a person in quotes.

Oh, I didn’t realize linguistics couldn’t be studied, since there is so many other fields that need to be studied before it. Could you please send me a list, might as well send it to the major universities as well, so they can be made aware of what is important enough to study, and what isn’t.

Hmm, I wonder why ebonics isn’t a “deserving” field. I don’t care to speculate, really.

One person gets passed over in a culture that has systematically denied minorities opportunity for decades, Yeah, you are right a new organization should be started.
Should start putting these people back in their place. We need to start giving “equality” back to the whites who deserve it.

No, your statement was that white people couldn’t have a scholarship without being racist. A large majority people with Irish origin are white. Or isn’t that clear enough for you?

Hmm, I didn’t realize you were equating color-blind and classless. Thats a mighty big equation. Does that mean all of the people of the other color are one class and the whites have a different class? Is that how the terms equate?

Way to avoid the question.

So, if someone doesn’t have as many qualifications as you, they are unqualified?
Is that what it comes down to?
It went from not as qualified as you, to unqualified. So, the person is unqualified for the position and is still getting the job? I would think that is one of the imperfections in the system I spoke of in my last post. I will ask again, do you think the pendulum has swung so far the other way? Do you think white people are being discriminated against in a systematic country wide fashion? Can you show me some numbers to back up this claim? Is their a cabal of minorities sitting in power playing the white man like a marionette?

You can put as much distance as you like, you will still be saying much the same things.

How is the fact that David Duke heads up the NAAWP liberal propaganda, and or drivel? Do facts hurt you that much?
pat

57

speakeasy
A much more reasonable post than your first. Congratulations on progressing beyond the whine. Just a few points I would like to clear up:

Then why did you claim they were? Or were you using “max” to mean something other than “highest possible”. For that matter, why even bring them up at all.

Again – so why bring this up at all? Oh yes, I remember, you were supporting an argument that you had been denied opportunities because you were white. After all, you had max SATs (except they weren’t really) and it was no fun “standing on the street, with no place to go, and you can’t get a job because you have no skills, not getting into school” (except of course you did get into school and the reason you weren’t attending had nothing to do with racial preferencing).

So why did you bring it up? And was it true, or is this another example of you misrepresenting details to try and bolster your case?

You have an interesting way of describing your friends.

Good question, and affirmative action policies definitely invoke a double standard.

Good answer – that is the very inspiration upon which affirmative action is predicated.

Another good question, and this is really the crux of the matter. Proponents of affirmative action maintain that racism and sexism are still serious problems in this country, that they are so serious a problem that we need to take extreme measures in order to combat the severe economic consequences of these attitudes. Opponents of affirmative action seem to be claiming that the playing field is level enough already, that we should remove racial preference in hiring and education because it is now causing more injustices than it corrects (I say “seem to be claiming” because they rarely come out and state those assertions. It may be that they know that racism and sexism will continue to significantly limit the opportunities for other people, but they just don’t care. It may be that they are simply more concerned with the injustices they percieve in their own lives. You have not stated your position on this, so I hesitate to assume.)

Let me state my position clearly. I wish that we lived in a truly egalitarian society where all individuals were judged solely upon their character, abilities and qualifications. We do not. We live in a society where women and minorities suffer significant retardation of economic opportunity. Private enterprise has repeatedly failed to take the initiative in providing equal economic opportunity to minorites and females. It therefore falls upon the government to address this inequality of opportunity. This effort on the part of the government will necessarily result in unjust treatment to some people. This is regretable but unavoidable. Deal with it.

Nice line, but it is meaningless to the discussion. You cannot change a man’s heart by doing nothing, either. We are not trying to change his heart. We are trying to protect our society from the poison in that heart.
homer

It was an analogy. Polio vaccination was a government supported program with an associated cost in human suffering. Why am I unsurprised that you were unable to extend the analogy to your own position.

No, you obviously like to whine about being a victim of reverse descrimination. The phrase is well established in the vocabulary of this issue. You may not like the etymology, but that is not pertinent to the issue. But, as Pat noted, your rant was a nice way of avoiding a straightforward question.

Really? So your position is that no borderline college candidate ever benefited from the education they received? That no employee hired to address a racial imbalance ever took advantage of that opportunity and found lasting success?

Ah, and here we see the attitude at the core. You see minorites and women as undeserving, apathetic social leeches, and you resent being forced to help them succeed.

No. If a quota causes a firm to hire 4% more minorities than it would have otherwise, then only the bottom 4% of white candidates will suffer the negative consequences. Actually – that assumes that there are an equal number of candidates from each population group. Of couse, since we are by definition speaking of minorities, the likely percentage of whites affected will be even smaller: perhaps only the bottom 2-3%.

Hmmmm – based upon your vociferous complaints, shall we now speculate upon where in the population of white males your own “deservedness” falls?

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

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Byz - Thanks! I teeter with it, the scar tissue gets in the way sometimes.

Spiritus old bean! Welcome back off the floor. Here, let me dust off that jacket. Whine this, gimp.

[I wish that we lived in a truly egalitarian society where all individuals were judged solely upon their character, abilities and qualifications.]

Me too. I just don’t agree that this is the way to get there.

[[You can’t change a man’s heart by forcing his hand.] Nice line, but it is meaningless to the discussion. We are not trying to change his heart.]

Wrongo! It is the essence of the discussion. The goal is a society where race and gender matters about as much as belly buttons. That comes from within. Reminds me of that joke, “Hi, we’re from the government and we’re here to help you”.

[We are trying to protect our society from the poison in that heart.]

Yeah, I know we’re not in Kansas anymore Toto. I have no problem with looking for patterns of racial discrimination in acceptance, graduation, hiring, and promotion. I have no problem with economic programs to help some groups up to speed.

I do have a problem with specifying that a certain percentage of acceptance/hires/etc must be of minority racial status. The way that often gets done is to force organizations to lower the bar for some people. That’s bad for everybody.

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[I have no problem with economic programs to help some groups up to speed.]

The group I have in mind is low income people. If we are trying to help the situation of disadvantaged people, why not look there? Then we can skip all this racial shit and get over it.

See ya.

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Yep, a liberal like your pal Jesus, who was, if you read the Bible carefully, clearly a communist, as he advocated his disciples getting food, shelter and clothing in the towns they went to to preach, and told the rich they had to give away everything they owned to follow him. Yep, I’m proud to be a liberal like Jesus!

Anyway, I, a white male, GOT a well-paying job with lots of opportunities, DESPITE my company’s aggressive minority hiring policies. I also got lots of money for college. Maybe the problem is just you, huh? Maybe you aren’t nearly as qualified as you think you are.