Do I have to cite lissener?
And yes, I actually have had this discussion IRL, vanilla.
Into which calibre slot do, e.g., people who believe that Jewish people are a blight and deserve extermination, fit? After all, death is a lesser fate than eternal damnation, so they are by definition better off than those who believe in eternal damnation for a group of blameless people.
If at all possible, can you point your nephew towards this site? I suppose an ideal situation is him realizing that there are a great many idiots in the world, and a depressing number with a hatred of him personally, that this is not his fault, and that such people are not worth paying attention to unless they’re taking a swing at him.
I wasn’t going to get involved in the slams by people filled with hate, because I didn’t think it was condusive to supporting Mr. V. Is proving his point really going to make him feel better?
But Debaser’s post took my breath away.
So I’ll say this about your nephew. That the community he’s in found out sucks. I’m sure this new life isn’t what he wanted. Now everyone knows (I presume). But he’s not the only gay person in that town, no matter how small or how conservative it is. He’s not the only gay kid. Maybe he can help those peers more alone than he is, and maybe he can feel good about himself again. Being out is more than being a target for violence, its also letting people still “in” that everything’s going to be okay.
You know, when some one has been forced to deny a major part of what they are in order to be accepted, finally having th courage to say “This is who I am” is a big damn deal.
I know it was for my friend John because it meant being able to accept himself.
That’s a pretty commom human trait.
Personally, I find those Christians who’ve just discovered God far more annoyingly in your face.
I’m not fond of people playing suck face in public either.
That said, if some one has difficulty with two man or two woman holding hands or walking down the street with their arms around each other, I tend to believe that it’s their problem and they need to modify their behavior, not said couple.
Hey, everyone, watch this:
<ahem>
I heretoforth acknowledge my support of X, to be filled in later. I also acknowledge many and gleeful actions of type Y, where Y is something that Airman Doors disagrees with more than he disagrees with X. By his logic, this should drive him into supporting X.
Apparently, people in Nebraska care quite a bit, to the point of at least one young gay person contemplating fleeing the state. As long as people show that they “care” about homosexuality by banning same-sex marriage or discriminating against gay people or barring them from the Air Force or posting bigoted shit to message boards like “I don’t agree with homosexuality” (to name but a few examples) then it is vitally important for gay people to come out. Survey after survey after survey demonstrate that it is much more likely that a straight person will be supportive of gay equality if s/he knows openly gay people. You’re a case in point.
Some do, some don’t. You tend to notice the more vocal people and overlook the quieter ones. When I came out in college I pretty much exploded out of the closet and took no prisoners. It was a style that worked from a political standpoint but after graduation in the “real world” it didn’t work so well so I toned it down. It’s been my experience that most gay people follow a similar coming out arc.
I agree with you that most PDAs are best done in private. Gay couples, however, should have the freedom to be exactly as affectionate with each other in public as straight couples. I have no problem with banishing the bulk of PDAs (although I don’t really see them too often) as long as the banishment is across all sexual lines. As far as people being jarred by gay PDAs, they won’t stop being jarred by them until they become accustomed to them, and they won’t become accustomed to them unless they see them.
On this point unfortunately I can muster no sympathy. Feeling uncomfortable at the idea of being found sexually attractive is a personal hangup on your part. I hope that you will at some point be able to view this as a compliment as opposed to an affront (assuming that the men aren’t engaging in Arnold-style activity with you).
Sounds like (ab)normal teenage life to me. Or does it only matter if it’s a gay person? :ROLLEYES:
I’m glad us short, fat, kids with glasses never got picked on. We might have had to, I don’t know, actually deal with it.
I do see where you’re coming from, Airman. A few points, though:
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I don’t like getting “hit on” much, either. A lot of people don’t, no matter what the sex of the hitter on. It’s a fact of life.
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Not everyone makes a big deal of their coming out, or of their sexual orientation at all. Obviously some do, and you see those more than others.
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Those who do make a big deal do it for a good reason. It’s because it’s part of who they are, one they feel very strongly about. Some people feel they aren’t presenting themselves honestly if they don’t present their sexual orientation. It’s a part of self-identity. And because it’s not the default assumption, sometimes it becomes even more important to recognize your self-identification. This happens in other cases too, obviously. For example, you identify strongly as an Airman. It’s even in your name!
Of course my sympathy goes out to Mr. Visibles nephew. I am constantly thankful that I live in a place where, for the most part, no one gives two figs about what my orientation is.
And it is definitely appreciated.
Um, in small towns with heavily fundamentalist leanings they most certainly do care. Coming out in any milieu is intensely personal and scary, but even more so when you are the only one in a hostile area.
Well, when that closet door swings open, there is a tendency for some gay folks to get a little wild, but they usually get over it.
So do you ever hold MsRobyn’s hand in public. You’re flaunting your sexuality!
Do you have a pictures of MsRobyn and Airman, Jr. on your desk at work? You’re flaunting your sexuality!
Do you ever mention that you have a wife to anyone else? Again with the flaunting!
See, even to say, “My partner and I went to the movies last night” is enough to cause many people to saythat I’m putting my sexuality up in their face.
I’m sure it is. All that’s required is to say, “Not interested.” And where are you getting hit on?
You’ve never “sucked face” in my presence, but you have indicated that you two are a couple right in front of God and me. Just another incidence of militant heterosexuals advancing the straight agenda.
So do I.
robertligouri: What? Can you write that in clear, lucid English, please?
As a side note:
I fully support any two people, of any genders, sucking face in public. I like to kiss my boyfriend when we’re out at a movie, and I go “aww…” when I see two guys kissing at an ice cream shop. Maybe it’s a Montreal thing.
Do I ever hold MsRobyn’s hand in public? No.
Do I have any pictures of Robin or the baby at work? Nope. My private life is my own, and there’s a long story behind that, but that’s neither here nor there.
So are we agreeing or disagreeing, gobear? I’m hardly a militant heterosexual. I’m so discreet it literally pisses Robin off. My own MOTHER once asked me if I was gay, I’m so discreet.
And hell, that I’m married is no big secret. That you’re gay is no big secret, either, so enough with the “flaunting” stuff already. Geez.
BTW, you need to bring your partner to some Dopefests, dude. He has to be over that whole “Cow is not a Doper” thing by now, isn’t he?
I’m still waiting to hear what the “agenda” is.
Airman Doors, I was happy to read your post. Thank you. I’m glad you’ve done some coming around. Just want to address this one thing (as others have already done, but it’s on my mind):
Of course people care. Haven’t we all heard people debating or gossiping about someone whose orientation was questionable? I’ve heard it, and I’ve done it. I’d qualify that as caring about someone’s sexual orientation, even if views for or against homosexuality don’t come into play at all.
I would like to add that I would appreciate it if anyone can give me an answer to this question. Also:
Can we talk about this? Are you saying that the shunning that is experienced by kids that are “short/fat/with glasses” is even on the same level of menace and systematic nature as that experienced by outed teens in high school? More importantly, rather than get in to the whole “which group is more oppressed” argument, can you state simply where it is that you stand on the issue at hand?
“As long as our culture makes coming out an act of civil disobedience, being gay will be a political statement.” - Kenneth Hanes
And MrVisible, I’m so sorry to read about your nephew, but happy to learn that they haven’t broken him enough to make him realize he still has options, and to know that he has a supportive group of relatives, including you. Please keep us posted.
Well, shoot, so much for using you for comparison purposes. Amd yes we’re agreeing, it’s just that some of your points indicate that you don’t quite understand what the gay Dopers are stressed about.
Ah, but don’t you see the difference? If you say, "I’m married, " people take that as a matter of course. If I say that I’m partnered in exactly the same context, people will say, “Ugh, don’t flaunt yourself at ME!”
So I’m not fussing at you, I’m just trying to show you that gay folks have reason to be annoyed with societal attitudes.
I’ve been working on it, but he’s really not with the whole Doper thing.
Maybe you can point out where in this thread anyone suggested that being picked on or tormented or driven to suicide only matters when the victim is gay? Because I must have missed it.
And there is a bit of a difference between being picked on for being fat, etc. and being picked on for being gay. While thankfully this is changing, more times than not a glasses-wearing or overweight child has some sort of support system at home whereas oftentimes a gay child does not.
Not that this is an attempt to excuse picking on fat kids or kids with glasses, but after all the topic of the thread is a gay kid.
That’s odd. I was short, fat, and had glasses when I was a kid. I went to a rural school district, and was taunted for wearing cheap clothes and being an atheist. But you know what? I was never in danger of being kicked out of my house by my parents because I was fat. I was never in danger of being beaten, tortured, and murdered because I didn’t go to church. I was never terrified about telling my parents and friends I needed glasses. I never thought I was going to hell because I was short.
There is a reason why statistics consistently show that gay teens are far more at risk for suicide than straight teens. Gay children are subjected to hatred that is institutionalized. They hear it from their church, their family, their parents, their friends, their teachers, and random adults on television, in the streets, sitting beside them on the bus–not just peers. And I do think it’s a terrible thing whenever any kid is tormented by his or her peers, but I still manage to retain a sense of perspective.
MrVisible, I’m so sorry about your nephew’s situation. It just breaks my heart every time I hear about something like this. I hope that things get better. I just hope he can remember that not everyone is like the people he’s having to put up with, and that there is hope for the future. I hope he know that there are plenty of kids his own age who have no problem with his sexuality, and I hope he can remember that when he’s lonely.
The difference here being that you are choosing to be discreet, whereas for many gay people “discretion” is forced upon them.
"I’m still waiting to hear what the “agenda” is. "
It’s just like the heterosexual agenda, i.e., constitutional rights like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but it’s got lots of gay sex.