Connecticut parents angry over trans athlete

You mean this: Stuff ?

Yeah, it was a bad take. Like, this was her actual statement:

Navratilova, who was responding to a question from one of her followers, said: “Clearly that can’t be right. You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women. There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”

Please note that nobody is actually advocating for that. Nobody is saying that people should be allowed to declare themselves transgender and immediately compete as the opposite gender. This is at best a misconception and at worst a pernicious and dangerous lie peddled by transphobes to shift the conversation to ground they’re more comfortable on. When people fall for that myth, or the related myth that trans athletes are more in line with their birth sex than their new gender post-HRT, it’s pretty damn harmful.

In reality, any sports association worth their salt demands that transgender athletes transition (whether or not that includes surgery), because pre-transition transwomen have a clear physical advantage. The discussion is and always has been about post-transition transwomen, and arguing otherwise is at best a weak strawman.

And, to her credit, Navratilova walked her statement back:

Earlier, Navratilova said: “I am sorry if I said anything anywhere near transphobic – certainly I meant no harm. I will educate myself better on this issue but meantime I will be quiet about it.”

“Ok- I take it back,” she wrote. “Clearly I do t know what u [sic] am talking about. So once again- I will defer to Renee Richards as she certainly knows what she is talking about. I will find that tweet and delete it. All I want is fairness. Thank you.”

See, that’s a really good apology! “I’m sorry I said something hurtful. I did not mean to; I did not know what I was talking about. I will shut up until I know what I am talking about so that I do not hurt any other people.” You basically could not ask for more than that.

The thing about the whole “notorious homophobe” thing is that you can be great on LGB rights while being pretty shit on T rights. There’s a whole segment of the LGBT activist community who actively want to saw off the “T” and focus only on the rights of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people (or, less inflammatorily, think that abandoning the T “for now” is a sacrifice worth making on laws like ENDA). There’s a long history of (especially, but not exclusively) lesbian feminist activists being aggressively anti-trans; you may have heard of Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists (or, more accurately, Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes, because my feminism will be trans-inclusive or it will be bullshit).

Navratilova isn’t one of them - she, like quite a few people, is just a bit behind the curve on trans issues. Indeed, what happened is that the far-right (y’know, the same people who would fight to deny her her right to marry a female partner if she so chose) picked up her statement and ran with it, because, “hey, look, a major LGBT icon saying something that validates all our nastiest beliefs about trans people, SIGNAL BOOST!”. Then, she was corrected on twitter and retracted her statement. I’m sure she’s comforted to know that she’ll now proceed to be trotted out by transphobes for the next however long it takes for this myth to stop being interesting to people and used as a cudgel against LGBT people. :mad:

So are you saying it’s valid to be concerned about the Connecticut student mentioned in the OP? In her state, there is no requirement that transgendered athletes receive HRT or surgery. If she’s physiologically an intact male, competing her against cis girls would be like allowing one athlete to dope while not allowing others to do so.

Oh shit, she’s not on HRT?

Yeah, that changes things.

And reading through the article… Yikes.

There is no proof that cisgender men are inherently more capable than cisgender women. According to an NCAA handbook called “Creating Positive & Inclusive Athletic Environments for Transgender Athletes,” the fear that “transgender women will be able to dominate women’s sports without effort due to the inherent advantages men have over women” is “a new iteration of the old stereotypes that kept women & girls out of sports prior to Title IX.”

Yeah, this? This is just painfully wrong. We cannot just wish away genetic differences. Men and women have different bone structures, different hormone profiles, and different bodies. HRT will change your hormone profile, your musculature, even your bone structure, but the idea that men and women are inherently equal in sports is just… what? No, that’s nuts. It doesn’t hold up in theory (men have far lower fat content and higher muscle mass) or in practice (women can’t run, swim, bike, etc. as far, as fast, or as long as men can, and the scores in high-level sporting events show this quite firmly).

At the NCAA level, transgender women may compete with cisgender women only after undergoing HRT for a year. (Ngozi declined to discuss whether Andraya has undergone HRT: “Her medical treatment doesn’t define whether she’s transgender or not,” Ngozi says.)

That’s true! But it does help define whether or not her body is in line with the bodies of those around her. A transwoman who is not on HRT is going to have the hormone profile of an AMAB man. And that’s going to have a major effect on musculature, on endurance, on bone structure, on height.

Oy vey, here we go with the darn categories again. :frowning: If we keep thinking “Woman” is just one category, one response to many questions, then it becomes problematic when we expect women in sports to not have male hormone profiles. But… we kinda have to, because that’s the whole point of having a women’s discipline in the first place.

Oog. I did not want to believe this was a discussion seriously being had anywhere. But apparently it is. Mea culpa. :frowning:

It seems that a lot of posters didn’t read the OP thoroughly, so don’t feel too bad.

While I sympathize with the girl’s desire to race and think it’s wonderful her family is so supportive of their daughter, my take is that is this an unwise battle to pick for someone in her position, when you know the struggle for acceptance is already going to be difficult. The presence or absence of testosterone affects athletic performance; that is indisputable. The secondary sex characterstics associated with estrogen (like widened hips) also can affect how fast one can run, among other things. If she has the athletic benefits of testosterone with none of the disadvantages of estrogen, the playing field ain’t starting off level. Doesn’t take a transphobic viewpoint to see a problem with this.

I used to somewhat use the eclectic, relativist view of gender definition, but after Contrapoint’s video The Aesthetic, the subsequent blowup, and this excellent response article you should read I find the eclectic view of what a woman “is” extremely lacking, and harmful to developing a useful praxis for women’s liberation.

All women are women, cis or trans. Pre-HRT, Pre-surgery, with a hysterectomy, post-menopausal, triplo-X, CAIS, whatever. If we’re not allowing women in “women’s leagues” we should provide a better definition and name for the league, not devolve into some bizarre ever morphing definition of “female”.

Now, no, I am in no way saying pre-HRT trans women should be participating in these currently-named “women’s leagues” because those leagues serve a good purpose in allowing cisgender female athletes to compete at all at high levels (though the corrupting influence of capitalism is a big factor in needing this), but excluding them makes them “some women and pre-HRT trans men and some AFAB nonbinary people I guess???” leagues. It’s not like the category as defined is exactly useful anyway, I feel like we have a blowup every other year with someone who’s mildly intersex or has naturally higher testosterone for no obvious reason and didn’t know it or something. Providing a tighter definition for these leagues than “woman” and then trying to provide a contextual definition of woman seems kind of complicated, why not skip the whole “define it as ‘woman’ and then hem and haw over how to define ‘woman’” to just “define who can compete in this bracket, fullstop” and cut out the middleman?

Is this view a rather big change? Yeah. And no, it’s not like I’m going to barge into other contexts to “well, actually” random debates. I’m not going to head into an abortion thread and say “um, excuse me, actually this is a ‘people with functional wombs’ issue not a women’s issue?” I hope that some day we can get there (well, hell, I hope some day we don’t need to be having abortion debates), but I’m not gonna go around shiposting and annoying people with this insistence. But in a thread about trans issues from the getgo? Yeah, I’ll ride this hobby horse.

This really seems more complicated than it should be. If you are MTF and have not transitioned and are not on HRT, you should not be able to compete against women. It should be as simple as that.

There is no dichotomy. There is no “MTF” and “women”. Transgender women are not some third gender category like the Thai kathoey, the Indian hijra, or any number of rich indigenous American gender systems. They do not refuse to classify themselves on the spectrum like agender or some nonbinary people.

There are only “women”, some are cis, and some are trans.

I have argued constantly in this thread that what are currently called “women’s leagues” should not contain pre-HRT trans women for various reasons and I absolutely stand by that. However, I take issue with language a lot of people are using without even realizing it like “allow trans women to compete with women.” I don’t think most of you have ill intent, but it does betray a deeply rooted unchecked bias in the speaker’s mind that they don’t really consider trans women “women”.

This is why I feel it’s important to, if we’re gonna do this, call them something other than “women’s leagues”. Because it implies everyone who competes in them are women (and not AFAB nonbinary people, not pre-HRT trans men), and implies everyone who cannot compete is in some way “not really a woman”.

What do you propose we call them then? It’s real easy to say let’s get rid of something, right? Much harder to say what should actually replace it.

I disagree that the answer is changing terminology. Just stipulate in the fine print that eligibility requires testicle-having women to be on HRT for X amount of time.

Perhaps we should call them “female” leagues? If your body is naturally or artificially female (with you with the face’s stipulation), you are in. But if you are woman in mind only, you gotta play with the males.

I am not a fan of “female league”, mind you. But I will accept it as long as men’s leagues get called “male leagues”.

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So reading through this, and taking some notes…

While Natalie is correct to note that the TERF obsession with definitions serves as a justification for bigotry, she fails to adequately explain how we might account for gender in the absence of universal definitions. We are left only with an unsubstantiated assumption that we can strategically deploy contradictory definitions when necessary to achieve specific political goals. We might wonder how we can determine the correct political goals without a universal and non-contradictory theory of gender, but Natalie denies us an explanation.

Do we need a complete theory of gender to understand why letting transwomen use the women’s bathroom is a good idea? No - we just need to understand that they just need to pee, and that forcing them into the men’s bathroom would subject them to harm - both psychological and potentially physical.

Do we need a complete theory of gender to understand why letting transwomen on HRT compete as women is a good idea? No - we just need to understand that their physical characteristics (that thing that matters a whole lot in sports) fit much closer to the norm in women’s sports than in men’s sports, and to understand that the categories of “men’s sports” and “women’s sports” exist due to that difference in physicality.

I don’t think the eclectic theory is contradictory at all. If we want to know what a “woman” is in the context of sports, we’re talking about a category. If we want to know what a “woman” is in the context of bathrooms, we’re talking about a category. But those two categories, despite having the same label, could mean two very different things. That’s not self-contradictory, it just requires a slightly different view on how we define words and phrases.

The article speaks about how we cannot fight for women’s liberation if we do not know what “woman” means, but I honestly don’t see it. Maybe this is just my privilege talking (I am a bi cis man after all), but one of the things about women’s lib I’ve noticed is that if you take away the context of “womanhood” or replace it with another category, the problem is generally still pretty clear. Replace “male” and “female” with the various types of Sneetches, where the definition is pretty clear, and it’s still clear that not letting unstarred Sneetches vote is wrong, for example. Yeah, it’s a silly example, but can you name a single women’s lib issue that actually relies on a comprehensive and self-contained theory of what a woman is? Couldn’t you just define “woman” in ways that make sense for the category, and then apply consequentialism? Where does this fall apart?

The article doesn’t seem to contain any examples. If you have any, I’d love to hear them. The closest it comes is that it makes the case that we need to combat essentialism. But eclecticism (are we calling it that?) is nothing if not a complete rebuttal of essentialism, saying that regardless of what you think the criteria is for “woman”, it’ll have difficulties working for every category we try to build. Ideally, we’d clean up our language here, and change things from “women’s tennis” to “female hormone profile tennis”, but… well, that’s not likely to happen any time soon. So failing that, our next best option is to have people think about the category of “woman” differently.

If we can come up with a theory of gender that actually works in all cases (FWIW I kinda checked out when she started talking about the Marxist theory of gender; it seems truly bizarre to define gender in terms of capitalism), well, great, let’s go with that. But none of the current theories we have actually works well, and the eclectic theory is the only one to actively acknowledge that reality.

I mean, I agree, I just don’t see it happening any time soon, and I’d rather people thought about how we define everything a little more carefully. (Yeah, I’m gonna be that guy - read the sequences.)

Eh, I’m with you.

That is a horrible response. It has the aesthetics of intellectual discussion, but it doesn’t actually say anything.

It has a central claim that a clearly defined definition of femininity and womanhood is needed, but it never actually makes a case for this. It just accepts it as given.

It also just is full of ad hominem against Natalie. It accuses her of crafting a definition of gender that includes her for her own personal interests. It attacks her position due to her whiteness and class. But at no point does it actually show any of this to be true. It’s just an assertion.

And that first one of those heavily implies that this writer wants a trans-exclusive definition of womanhood. If Natalie errs in choosing a definition of womanhood that includes her as a trans woman, then that implies the “correct” definition does not include trans women. Surely I do not need to get into why that TERF view of womanhood is clearly incorrect.

BPC has already rebutted the claim that we need a single definition. Feminism works just fine with the current definition of woman that is eclectic. You don’t need a unified theory of gender to fight for trans restroom rights or any other issue.I will add that you can have one that contextual, the same as we have a morality that is contextual. There is no contest between different minority groups, and this in no way makes gender lesser than race or sexual orientation (both of which aren’t entirely concrete, either).

And I’ll note, because it’s often necessary, that I don’t agree with several parts of her Contrapoints videos. I would have welcomed an actual critique. But I find this response to be quite wanting in that regard. It just seems to make assumptions without backing them up.

Which implies that non-HRT transgender people aren’t really female. Is that better? I don’t think there is less contention over transgender people identifying as “female” vs. identifying as “women”. Are you OK with telling a transgender person who doesn’t take hormones “no, you are not a female”.

Regards,
Shodan

I don’t feel like my opinion matters a whole lot, since I am not the one who is bothered by “women’s leagues”. I don’t think “women” is all that exclusionary, but I can see how “female” would be more inclusive. It isn’t perfect, but is better than “persons who are sufficiently estrogenized to no longer be able to compete on equal footing against testosteronized persons” league.

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Er, the writer is a latina trans woman so…
She has other articles explaining her attempts at a definition, she mostly subscribes to the experiential theory.

E: I don’t have time to respond to everything that’s been posted this second. Later when I get back.

Just to note that this is back in the news in the U.K., with Sharron Davies - an Olympic swimmer and well known TV presenter - speaking out on the issue.

ISTM that it’s too much to ask to upend the whole field and negatively affect 50% of the population to accommodate a small fraction of one percent.

Human rights are often tricky like that.

This one is going to run and run.

TheCaster Semenya case has been heard and a ruling due on 26th March and it has massive implications for the women’s sport.

Once you start segregating sports into categories, you cannot help but run into issues with policing those categories. Those categories range from simple empirical judgements (weight classes) through slightly more problematic ones (age and place of birth) through todisability categories and then to the shifting sands of sex and gender. I rather pity the sport regulators who have to make sense of it and I don’t think there will ever be an answer that will make everyone happy.

Personally, I don’t take that much interest in restricted sports and don’t compete in them but certainly the competitors at the sharp end must find it intensely frustrating. Racing against Semenya in unrestricted mode must be disheartening and I can easily see why athletes would want to speak out about it and yet, at the same time why they feel they can’t.

The Canada Winter Games have announced that anyone who identifies as a woman can compete as a woman; no HRT required. Precisely how long you need to have so identified isn’t clear to me - I have struggled to figure that out - but let’s be perfectly honest; it doesn’t matter. A person born male who hasn’t gone through HRT is a man, physically speaking, and will destroy women in competitive sports.

People ARE advocating for anyone to be allowed to compete as a woman, without hormone therapy; Rachel McKinnon quite famously is in favor of this. It is absolutely something that is going to be broadly pushed for in the near future. You’ve yourself noted the insanity of claiming men aren’t better than women in sports - but this absolutely IS what the transwomen-in-sports lobby is pushing.

Martina Navratilova isn’t a “transphobe,” or a “TERF,” she’s a woman concerned that women are going to be pushed out of sports, and if men are allowed to compete with women solely because of how they identify, that’s what’s going to happen. Saying “trans women are women” and refusing to think beyond that just isn’t a reasonable approach. In sports terms, trans women aren’t. Unless the word “woman” means nothing at all, there’s a difference.

Seems like this is a lesson that won’t be learned except the hard way. It needs some men to sweep the medals.