Loyal to one kind of Republicanism: Protectionist anti-immigrant populism. That’s not been the mainstream Republicanism among the people actually in office for quite a while now, which means being loyal to it implies disloyalty to the Republican leadership. Which, as we’ve seen, has been a theme in Trump’s rise from the very beginning, and which has become more of one over time.
The lesson is that the GOP, like any modern party, is composed of factions, and the rise of Trump at the expense of the GOP’s leadership means those factions are splitting from each other, rupturing the party as a whole.
So Republicans who are conservative about the GOP (that is, they want the GOP to stay as it is) are anti-Trump. Republicans who are conservative about the country as a whole may or may not be anti-Trump, depending on their specific politics and tastes.
I am Libertarian Party, with some positions you might call conservative.
I will not vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton under any circumstances. I don’t really care which of them wins, as there seems to be very little difference between them. Both are power-hungry people without moral principles who would say or do anything to win the election. Both are constant liars. Both have flip-flopped on almost every issue when it was convenient to do so. Both would swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, without having any intention to keep it. Both think that the Constitution, other laws, and federal rules don’t apply to themselves. Both have supported building a wall on the southern border. Both propose of “bombs away” foreign policy that’s sure to keep American military entangled in the Middle East for years. Both show total indifference to the people who would be killed or injured by their wars and bombing. Both propose enormous new government intrusion into the economy, and massive spending increases at a time that the country already has an enormous debt that’s growing larger each days and faces long-term financial ruin.
It will be interesting to check this pit thread were most of the conservative dopers pointed that they would not support Trump if he managed to get the nomination.
Of notice there was that Starving Artist announced that he was only considering to vote for Trump then, but nowadays has reported that he will not vote for him. Our conservatives are different.
But even outside of the Dope it is clear that the very reliable right wing echo chamber of previous elections has cave-ins now, besides the several reported conservative Internet sites and magazines that are not going for the typical political bullshit, we have to add conservative pundits, satirists or journalists like P.J. O’Rourke:
In 1968 George Wallace said that there wasn’t a dime’s worth of difference between Democrat and Republican - in this case Humphrey and Nixon. So it looks light years from the political mainstream.
This is correct. I will not vote for him, because he sounded sincere about going after terrorist families although I suspect he really wouldn’t, and because I think he’s even worse than Hillary Clinton when it comes to not knowing what he would really do.
I detest the idea of voting for Hillary Clinton but my doing so is not off the table. It depends on how things play out between now and the election.
Having said that, I still like and admire Trump and will continue to fight ignorance about him such as frequently appears here. If people are going to abstain or vote against him I’d rather it be for factual reasons than because of the abundance of false claims about him that appear regularly all over the board.
Ahem, your previous post on the other thread were you complained about that was ignoring a lot about what Trump did, in reality the facts are not quite in your favor nor were completely on the side of the ones that claimed that Trump is a failure; the reality is more complex; but the past business exploits of Trump, even the good ones, are not a good guide now because in his run to get the candidacy Trump does rely on the worst ignorance and fear.
The facts I related were all perfectly true. The other aspects you raised in response (a debate about which are off-topic here) are open to debate and point of view.
I’m about to call it a night but perhaps tomorrow we can go over those posts of yours in the other thread and discuss it.
The point was that that was not denied, the problem is that what you related was incomplete, making the business deals and smarts from Trump to be more complex than just the absolute position made to claim one extreme or the other. As the guys in New Zealand noted. (Had to do way out there to avoid the American partisanship)
What is complete or incomplete is a judgement call. And not only that but any such call is destined to be based on incomplete information itself, given that none of us has access to all of the relevant information in or about Trump’s life.
I’m conservative and today all I know is I won’t vote for Hillary. I might vote for Gary Johnson. I don’t think Trump can convince me from now to November that he’s not a terrible person and wouldn’t be a terrible president. But I’ll listen.
ETA: To answer the poll question, as of today I’d vote for someone else.
The point was directed to both the ones that claim that Trump was not as successful as he claims as well to the ones that claim that he is the bee’s knees or smart. Both extremes are based on an argument from ignorance.
Hence the point that conservatives should also look at what others independently conclude about what Trump is, a lot of his boastings are likely to be unsightly resume padding. And nothing of what you point out denies that Trump is indeed resorting to ignorance and fear in his current run to the presidency. The success that he boasts in business has little to do with the task he wants to get into now.
Why should a Libertarian, of all things, care about whether candidates have moral principles? If you vote that way, you end up with FDR (or Bernie Sanders) in the WH. You wouldn’t like that!
Your cite in this post, along with every serious look I’ve seen, supports the contention that Trump is not as successful as he claims.