Well gee. Let’s wipe out the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, all of it. Let’s all have a healthy shit on the memory of the people who started the country. Let’s drop the pretense of fighting for freedom, or preserving freedom, or even having any. Let’s not bullshit anymore about the “diginity of man” or “inalienable rights”. Everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Let’s start killing all of them (even the innocent) until we stumble upon the right one by sheer chance. But, to make it OK, let’s first wring a confession out of them by force and “aggressive interrogation”.
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. " - Abraham Lincoln
"These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. " -Proverbs 6:16-19
“So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.” - Isaiah 1:15
Do you think these people were taken at random out of the phone book or that perhaps they were suspected of knowing something that could help prevent an attack? If they did have material knowledge then they are getting what they paid for by participating in the plot.
One one hand you say you are willing to die to preserve the status quo and on the other you say we can defend ourselves. Which is it? And what exactly would you do differently?
Since when does this country have a King? Isn’t that antithetical to the very principles upon which the United States was founded? Or would you favor turning the Presidency into an absolute, hereditary monarchy if someone told you it would stop terrorism?
I wouldn’t use torture, if that’s what you’re asking. I’d stick to acceptable protocols. But I’d also gather evidence and build a case.
Bit of a strawman there?
I would hope that not one death is acceptable to preserve a mere illusion of rights. How many innocent men are you willing to destroy to preserve the illusion that America is somehow immune from terrorism? How much of the Constitution are you willing to sacrifice in order to preserve the Constitution?
Islamic terrorism has been brewing for 25 years or so now. I trace it back to the Iranian Hostage crisis in 1979. When we didn’t hit back, the Arab world saw that we could be humiliated and pushed around. The problem took a long time to build and it will take a long time to deal with.
It’s foolish to leave yourself vulnerable for the sake of a philisophical ideal.
Are there totally innocent people that have been subjected to this? Perhaps. If so, they deserve to be compensated and apologized to. But I would rather deal with 999 bad actors than leave 1000 of them alone.
You asked which civil liberties were taken away, and not locking up people indefinitely without evidence or charges is a civil liberty. A very important one, to many people’s opinion. Did you only want civil liberty examples that you, personally, don’t care about? You’ll have to be more specific in your requests, and give a list of which ones you care and don’t care about, next time.
Are you really willing to trust the gov’t to not abuse this power? Even if you trust this administration, are you willing to bet all the next administrations will be so trustworthy?
Where did I say that? Oh, I see, Revtim implied that he is willing to take some extra risk in order to live in a country with honor, and I agreed with him.
Well, yes, of course. I’d prefer not to die, and I’d prefer to remain honorable. Where do you get this silly idea that defending myself requires my becoming an unprincipled man? Oh, that’s right, you’re projecting.
Well, little man, were I to respond to your scenario, I would tell you something essentially similar to tdn’s answer. However, it’s a bullshit scenario. How often do you have a head count of innocent versus non-innocents among a group of arrestees? What about a scenario where 9 are innocent and one is a ringleader?
A more apt hypothetical would be that you arrest 10 guys in a house because you were told by a local that there were terrorists there. All 10 could be terrorists, or all 10 could be innocent. Could be that the local who gave you the information was a terrorist, or someone with a grudge, or an honest man with some information. Should you give them some degree of due process, or should you roll them around in shit, put panties on their heads, kill some of them and piss on their Koran before you let them go?
I admit that I’m no history buff, but surely there were some pissed-off Arabs who wanted us dead when we helped create the state of Israel in '48? (I honestly don’t know, I’m not being sarcastic. Corrections welcome.)
And BTW, not wanting the gov’t to have the power to lock me or my loved ones up indefinitely without a trial or even charges is a bit more tangible than a philisophical ideal.