I think you’re wasting your time with this argument. Evil One seems to be of the mindset that only criminals and terrorists can get arrested. The thought “What if it happened to you?” will never occur to him, no matter how many ways you try to explain it. He’ll always come back with “I’d never put myself in that situation.”
And where did you get the idea that it’s impossible to agree that some coercion is necessary in certain cases and still be principled?
Where the fuck are you getting this “extraordinary circumstances” proviso? Did I miss the passage of an amendment stating “Due process may be suspended if we think you might be a terrorist”?
I think that both examples are possible, as well as other variations. And I do think that some degree of due process is called for. I don’t advocate torture for personal amusement. But leads have to be followed and care has to be taken to preserve lives and property. You can’t go overboard on coercion and you can’t sit back and do nothing.
No. Jewell got screwed. But as I said, you can’t ignore 999 bad actors because 1 might be innocent. No system is perfect and some people have been wronged. But what is the alternative? Roll over and wait?
My wording was awkward, but I trust you got my meaning. Given a choice between living in “your world” or being dead, I’d prefer death. Your way is just death by slow rot anyway. Call it “death before dishonor”, stubbornness, fanaticism, whatever.
How can you wave the flag, talk about glory and freedom, and all that, when you are so eager to flush it all down the toilet?
Do you really think that will happen? Do you expect someone to just pick your name out of a hat and kick your door down?
I’ll accept this. I think we all will.
But don’t you think that arresting people without charge and holding them indefinitely without representation goes overboard? What about inflicting cruel and unusual punishment without a conviction?
What about 998 and 2? 600 and 400? 1 and 999?
Perhaps you’re not aware, but the proportion of bad guys to good guys in detention in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanamo is not anywhere close to 999:1.
Do people who are not American citizens and who are actively engaged in behavior to attack our society have the standing to involk constitutional rights?
Of course not.
But where do you come up with statistics for 999:1? How do you know it’s not 500:500? Or 1:999? Or even 0:1000? It’s not like we have lawyers investigating.
I am willing to fight for my society against those who would destroy it. That includes forcing them to talk when necessary.
Yes. Indefinitely is too much. So is outright torture. Even if they aren’t citizens. Would I punish before conviction? Also, no. But I am willing to keep someone awake for a couple of days to force them to answer questions where lives may depend on the answers.
No, I expect it will happen (hopefully not to me) not from picking a name at random, but from bad evidence, lying informants with a grudge, investigational mistakes, etc. You know, the reasons why we actually have due process.
I don’t know how many people are in custody in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan. I don’t know how many are being held without charges. I don’t know how many are innocent.
I do know that we cannot sit back and do nothing when we are in danger. Our country has done more good and saved more lives than any other in modern history. Our soldiers have died defending Muslims from genocide in Bosnia. We are a beacon of science and medicine. We simply cannot sit on our hands in the name of philosophy and wait to be attacked. We have to preempt and prevent.
Will the system always work the way it should? No. Will human error and weakness be a factor? Yes. But we have to defend the society we hold dear…even if some of the steps are painful.
Good to hear. But you realize we are doing just that, right?
There’s the rub. Is keeping someone awake for days on end torture? From what I understand, it is, and a rather cruel one at that.
What about the seven American citizens in my Washington Post cite in post #78?
And the fact that you say these are people who are “actively engaged in behavior to attack our society” shows that your biggest problem is that you are assuming everybody they took into custody is automatically guilty. If law enforcement is so perfect, why have due process at all? Why not just have the cop or agent pass sentence in all matters? Or are they magically more skilled and less prone to error or corruption only when terrorists are involved?
I ask again, Revtim. I confer absolute power upon you. Please tell me specifically how you would deal with the problem of getting information from detainees.
Who is saying we are to do nothing? Surely there is some value, in your eyes, to investigation and law enforcement that follows the Bill Of Rights? Or is that so useless to you that it’s as bad as literally nothing?
What you’re saying is we have a right to protect ourselves. And I don’t think anyone here disagrees.
But we’re not trying to protect a mere philosophy, as you put it. To the innocent famer who’s been rotting away in Gitmo for 3 years with no foreseeable chance of release, it’s more than just a philosophy. It’s the right to have been tried and released 2.9 years ago. He’s being denied that. By the Beacon of Justice, no less.