So maybe you’re a wee bit mistaken about what their “belief system” is telling them to do.
106:6 - To you your religion, and to me my religion.
60:8 - God forbids you not, as regards those who have not fought you in religion’s cause, nor expelled you from your habitations, that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them; surely God loves the just.
2:256 - There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower. *
Isn’t this fun?
You cite surah and ayah for the above from the Qur’an, but this is just cited to “Al-Bukhari”? It’s 2794 (or 4.52.260, in USC-MSC format) and 6922 (9.84.57).
“Anas reported that a Jewish woman brought the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, poisoned sheep. He ate from it and she was brought. It was asked, ‘Should we not kill her?’ ‘No,’ he replied.” - al-Adab al-Mufrad 243
''Abdullah ibn 'Amr reported that a man said, ‘Messenger of Allah, which aspect of Islam is best?’ He replied, ‘Feeding people and greeting those you know and those you do not know.’" - al-Adab al-Mufrad 1013
“Ibn 'Abbas said, ‘Return the greeting to whomever it is, Jew, Christian, or Magian. That is because Allah says, “When you are greeted with a greeting, greet with one better than it or return it. (4:86)”’” - al-Adab al-Mufrad 1107
It was already broken down for you, you know - al-Bukhari arranged the ahadith in his collection by subject.
It’s taken you ten years to read one of the six books of one of the many denominations of Islam?
Wow…what an expert you are.
You by your own admission have read one book from one denomination, and since you couldn’t even properly cite the hadith you quoted from it, I doubt you’ve actually done even that much.
Maybe that’s why, when one corrects for literacy, wealth, and education, support for suicide bombing goes up. More evidence that the bad ideas within Islam are directly linked to the bad behaviour of those who take them on board.
It has everything to do with it you fucking dunce. Nearly every page of the Koran makes it crystal clear just how much Allah hates, curses, condemns, loathes, and despises unbelievers. And you think this is completely unrelated to the existence of this belligerent, self-pitying, perpetually aggrieved “meta-identity” which leads some muslims to commit acts of violence? You think it’s a fucking co-incidence that every time another “alienated” muslim commits an act of violent extremism or fucks off to fight for ISIS, it later transpires they have links to an extremist mosque? Where do you think they’re learning about this “meta-identity” in the first place? Netflix? The fucking weather channel? Prick.
I’d say prime real-estate in Paradise qualifies as a benefit, wouldn’t you?
It is worse than other religions. There are religions which simply do not allow for suicidal terrorism. It’s also worse than Christianity (not that Christianity is all that great) because it’s less open to non-literalist readings.
I don’t believe you, but I could be wrong. If you’ll indulge me…How old are you? Are you from the US? Which state? What is your educational background? Are you employed?
I believe him. I think white supremacist beliefs are still quite common (maybe 10-20% of the population, or perhaps even more) in the US, even if they’re not nearly as common as they used to be.
That’s not why I question his sincerity. We have other white supremacists on this board that I have no problem taking at face value.
But **Construct’**s claims are just a little more over-the-top, are written in a way that seems designed to be inflammatory, and the language choices just don’t quite fit the persona.
Obviously, that’s not much more than a hunch. I wouldn’t bet on it. Just my inclination.
Nope. I think Islam had, at the time it was founded at least, a lot of pretty good ideas actually, because it was a genuinely progressive mindset in its historical context.
I also think that Islam, like all the other religions, is nefarious because no matter what it says or teaches, its entire premise rests on the notion of a Great Beard in the Sky, which not only makes it invalid as a rational construct but fosters further, well, insanity, for lack of a better word.
And in that it is no worse or better than any other ethical or cultural system based not on ethics, reflection, introspection and self-criticism, but on supernatural retribution/rewards, cast-iron dogma and silly fucking hats.
Religion is bad as a whole because it fosters wooly thinking, basically.
So, let me tell you about Sufism. You know what, fuck that, look up Sufism on your own. They’re damn dirty muzzies, very devout ones at that AND contemplative pacifists. It is a conundrum.
Nope. People are people. They’re just basically people, wherever. Religion is just another faulty box to peg them into, the better to Other them for the eco-cultural needs of the day.
Also it’s a damn good mask for racism, innit ?!
And yet there’s over a thousand years of theology and related fuckery based on interpreting it. Much pulling of beards divided among four major schools of thought and god knows how many individual, unique sects ; none of which believes the same things about the same passages of the same text.
And don’t get me started on the hadiths, because these guys invented the ardent free-for-all.
It’s also not an *actual *part of Islam according to many Islamic scholars (across the centuries), so there is that.
Outer Jihad can be interpreted as making downright deadly arguments to convert people, or just being a good Muslim to convert by example, or it could mean a duty to wage war but against pagans specifically - since Christians and Jews are not infidels…
As for being unique to Islam : “Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the Earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have to come turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against a mother in law. A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.”
And, well, when it’s all said and done, Deus lo vult, innit ?
Are you for real ? Martyrdom unique to Islam ?!
No, not really. For example, European 'phobes love to harp on Islamic terrorism. Yet looking up Interpol’s tally of terror attacks, arrests and convictions over the past ten years, European Muslims fall behind nationalism/separatism (notably Basque, Corsican and Greek/Macedonian) by a factor of ten in the worst years of islamic activism.
Most years Muslims do fuck all, and nationalists account for 200+ incidents (and that’s a low tally - it goes as high as 600+, when the worst Muslim years feature about 50 incidents).
So, you know. Piss off, and that.
Why reply directly to people taking **Riggs **to task, then ?
Nope. They just don’t adhere to the bad ideas in Islamic scripture. Good for them.
*6:70 And forsake those who take their religion for a pastime and a jest, and whom the life of the world beguileth. Remind (mankind) hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it earneth. It hath beside Allah no protecting ally nor intercessor, and though it offer every compensation it will not be accepted from it. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved.
6:49 But as for those who deny Our revelations, torment will afflict them for that they used to disobey.
4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.*
Yeah. Great fun.
It can easily be argued that your first two verses were rendered irrelevant by later revelations. As for you third, why don’t you do everyone here a favour and cite the very next verse and then try arguing that 2:256 is as ecumenical as you’re making it out to be.
So…I make one incomplete citation and you conclude that I couldn’t possibly have read any of the material I claimed to have read? How does that work?
Yep. That’s good advice. Were you under the impression that I don’t think there’s anything of worth in Islamic scripture? Because I’ve been very careful not to give that impression.
I’m guessing you missed the relevance of “Early July, 2005”.
First of all, that’s wrong ; second of all didn’t we just establish that the majority of European Muslims ; who couldn’t read Arabic any more than I can read Heavenly Script, don’t know what the Koran makes “crystal clear” ?
(and you have a fairly indulgent notion of crystal clear, mate ; because judging by the translations I’ve come across the Koran says everything and its opposite. It’s fairly religious like that)
Dig deeper, fuckwad. WHY do they feel a need to look for a meta-identity in the first place ? Did you ? Did I ? I mean, they were born in Britain, or France, or the US, or where else ever, right ? Which should make them, perforce, British, French, American, Whereelseeverese.
Yet they don’t feel like that. And they feel drawn to find a different identity. One that, typically, is opposed to the British, French, American, Wherethefuckeverese in most every way.
Now, do you reckon it’s because a 1300 year old piece of paper said to, or because of something else ? Remember, they’re people. Not monsters, not djinns, not Koran Elementals +5, people.
I doubt a majority of them (in Europe at least) even believe in that shit.
I tend to agree with you. I also found his ready access to his own greatest hits library to be suggestive of something other than strraightfoward posting. “Look how provacative I was here, and here, and here” - that’s not something I would expect from a typical poster.
This is straight-up bullshit. The Qur’an is the “literal” Word of Allah as in the verbatim Word of Allah, but it most certainly is not “intended to be taken absolutely literally”. Not only is it written in a fashion that requires interpretation and interpolation (all those words in parentheses you see when reading translations? Those words are not in the Qur’an, but have been added for clarity because of the stylistic way the Qur’an was written), but it’s absolutely loaded to the gills with metaphor and poetic imagery. The Qur’an itself, in 3:7, declares that some of its verses are clear (mukham), while others are ambiguous or obscure (mutashabih). As a result, exegesis of the Qur’an is focused on separating the surface meaning, the batin, from the inner meaning, the zahir.
It can also be easily argued that they weren’t. I’d be careful about trying to bring naskh into the argument, if I were you.
If you’re clutching your pearls that the Qur’an declares that unbelievers will suffer in the afterlife, I’d like to introduce you to every fucking religion ever.
But you weren’t excoriating Islam for what it says will happen to unbelievers in the afterlife, but because, and I quote, “Nearly every page of the Koran makes it crystal clear just how much Allah hates, curses, condemns, loathes, and despises unbelievers. And you think this is completely unrelated to the existence of this belligerent, self-pitying, perpetually aggrieved “meta-identity” which leads some muslims to commit acts of violence?”
Except your claim, your interpretation, misses the fact that the Qur’an also makes it crystal clear that Muslims are to treat unbelievers with kindness and equanimity.
Because I’ve danced this dance before. Those who claim to know all about the Qur’an and the hadith and to have read it and studied it extensively invariably are merely cutting and pasting cherry-picked extracts posted by someone else. And since those other haters usually don’t bother to give citations, they’re regurgitated without citations.
It’s like a giant siren screaming “I didn’t look this up myself in a book of hadith, I just copied someone else.”
You’re doing a really shitty job of it, then.
“I’ve been reading [al-Bukhari] for a while. Ever since around early July 2005, as a matter of fact.”
Either you meant to say that you’ve been reading that particular individual collection in Kutub al-Sittah since July 2005 (which, as it’s now August 2015, means you’ve been reading that one single book of hadith for ten years now), or you’re the gold-medal champion at being utterly incapable of putting your actual intended message into words.
The “relevance” of 7 July 2005 is the London subway bombings. In which 52 died & many more were injured.
It was a terrible crime but we lost more than that on 9/11. And our own extremists used that terrible crime as an excuse to set the Middle East on fire.
Still doesn’t change the fact that Tithonus has been apparently been trying to read a single book of hadith out of the literally dozens of collections for a decade, and laughably tried to pass this off as giving him some sort of expertise, much less knowledge, of Islam because he’s “read the Koran and the hadith” (unlike, apparently, the rest of us :rolleyes:).
Why is it that those who know the least about a subject always try to pretend they know more than anyone else about that subject? Tithonus is pretty much the poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger effect!
Ooops, this should be the other way around. Zahir is the outer meaning, batin is the inner meaning. That’s what I get for typing too fast - I actually had to go back and edit my post because I hit Submit despite leaving some sentences unfinished!
Ẓahiriyya, those who believe that the surface (immediately apparent) meaning of Qur’anic verses takes priority, today are relatively few in number, and aren’t counted as one of the Four Schools of Sunni jurisprudence. Many salafiyya (“fundamentalist” Muslims) are zahiris, which is why the school has become associated with fundamentalism and extremism. But Zahiriyya are a minority today, and haven’t been influential for about 700 years.
Batiniyya, those who believe that the inner (esoteric) meaning of Qur’anic verses takes priority, certainly exist, and are on the whole more influential in Islam these days than the zahiriyya, particularly among Sunnis via Sufism and non-Twelver Shias.
Mainstream Muslim exegesis of the Qur’an falls somewhere between these two extremes.
Given where the “facts” he lists in post #8 lead, I would imagine he spends a lot of time [del]sucking this guy’s dick[/del] absorbing this guy’s ideas.
