Cops and cars

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcommandeer.html

I don’t get it. Isn’t pretty clearly at odds with the fifth amendment? The government can’t deprive someone of their property without due process?

In the case of Katrina and pharmacies or similar situations it seems rather more justified. A lot of lives were at stake. And they’re taking what was meant to be sold anyway. So it wouldn’t be hard to compensate the person (although apparently…they don’t.)

But cars? From a private citizen? When there might not be any immediate peril? (like a fleeing bank robber). What if it’s irreplacable (not that they’re going to try)? Even if it’s not damaged what if it causes the person to lose his job, or not get to his doctor or not pick up his children? Ie causing undue hardship.

Seems pretty unconstitutional to me.

Emergency use is the rationale.

Temporary or even permanent taking of property by the government is a part of the game. They key is appropriate taking and recompense.

Well, sort of.

Courts give several reasons for denying recovery.

  1. The purpose of the confiscation. They say its a use of the police power instead of eminent domain. Cf. , McCoy v. Sanders (Poor Mr. McCoy. Somebody dumps a body in his fish pond. The cops drain it. His fish die. He gets nothing but sashimi.)
  2. It’s a borrowing–not a taking. No compensation for temporary takings. Cf., Jones v. Philadelphia (pdf at p. 7)
  3. I’m just going to call this category “other” for now. *Blackman * is a perfect example. In Blackman, the court found that the officer lacked authority to commandeer the plaintiff’s vehicle. Because he lacked authority, no compensation was required. :eek: I bet you find this hard to believe.

Just wanted to offer kudos to Gfactor for a well researched and written report on an interesting topic. Good job!

Thanks.

For the record, a family friend was a career police officer. When he retired, he was second in command his city’s police department. We had dinner a month or so ago, and I couldn’t resist asking him about this. I had already written the report, but I thought he might have some cool stories. He didn’t. I asked him if he’d ever commandeered a car, and he said, “What? Like in the movies?”

When I told him about my findings, he was quite dismayed.

After the Blackman decision, could Blackman and the insurance company civilly sue the police officer for damages? Usually he would be immune, but if the court ruled that he took property without authority I’d think this wouldn’t hold.

Probably not. Ohio sovereign immunity law is murky, http://www.dispatch.com/news/special/immunity/badg622imm.html, not to mention we are talking about what a court would have decided fifty years ago. Neverthless, my research suggests that police officers had immunity for such things. If the officer knew he lacked authority to take the vehicle, it might have been a different story. Even then, Blackman’s holding is not crystal clear:

It doesn’t really come out and say that the officer can’t take the car–just that he can’t condemn it. I know I said that the court held that he couldn’t commandeer it, and I think that is a rational reading of the case. But the case would better test the limits of immunity if the officer had demanded possession of the car. He didn’t. Instead, he ordered Blackman to chase the fleeing vehicle. The statute authorized the officer to call upon Blackman to assist him. That’s really all the officer did. Blackman crashed his own vehicle. A subtle distinction, sure, but here it could make a difference.

Amendments don’t mean anything anymore. We like to think we still abide by them, but really they are just garbage from a bygone era. Free speech? Doesn’t exist anymore. I can think of several words I am not allowed to utter in society for fear of being incarcerated. Who knows whom you may offend?

This is based on a common misunderanding of the nature of constitutional law, which sees the Constitution and statute law as standing in relationship to one another roughly as Euclidean postulates to derived theorems. Nothing could be further from the truth. The basic law of both the US federal government and 49 of the 50 states (Louisiana being a special case) is the existing law of England (not the United Kingdom) as it applied in the Colonies on the morning of July 2, 1776. The Constitution is only a set of rules that is fitted on top of that.

The ancient power of the posse comitatus is derived from those English laws (and, for all I know, from the laws of the Roman Empire before them), and if you had asked the members of the 1st Congress whether the 5th Amendment had anything to do with that power, they would have laughed in your face.

They would have said that the Fifth Amendment only covered actions by the federal government.

One can certainly make a case that things are going downhill in this country. One can even make the case that we’re approaching the situation you describe. But one shouldn’t lose hope just yet: Were freedom of speech truly gone, you would not even have been able to say what you just did. What damage has been done, can still be undone.

I will be watching to see if lateyogurt is heard from again!

:confused:

Not really. The basic law of the states is whatever their courts and legislatures say it is, subject to the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution:

While state law began with the adoption of English common law, all have modified it by judicial decision and by statute.

Some interpretive theories consider existing practices and common law rules existing when a particular provision of the Constitution was drafted, debated, or ratified as evidence that that practice or rule was not considered a violation of the provision. See, e.g., ROBERTSON v. BALDWIN, 165 U.S. 275 (1897) (services which have from time immemorial been treated as exceptional shall not be regarded as within the purview of the Thirteenth Amendment). But even then, there is dispute about what the timing ought to be. The Constitution was not drafted unitl 1787, and it was not ratified until 1789. The Bill of Rights, which includes the Fifth Amendment, was not ratifed until 1791.

But most significantly, no court has offered the existence of posse comitatus at English common law, as Colonial law, or as state law, as a reason for denying compensation. The history does appear in many of the cases, and it is a possible psychological reason for the courts’ decisions. But it just doesn’t show up on the radar as a juridical hook.

That might have something to do with the point I made before. The Bill of Rights only applied to actions by the federal government. It wasn’t until 1868 that the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Few legal historians contend that the “original meaning” of that amendment required incorporation of the Bill of Rights (which meant that the Fifth Amendment would finally apply to the states), and it wasn’t until the early twentieth century that the Court began selectively applying parts of the Bill of Rights to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/conlaw/incorp.htm

I am consumed with jealousy.

I had explored this topic myself for a Staff Report, although I never got beyond the draft stage.

Now gfactor has taken it on and created a comprehensive, well-researched report that is better than I could have hoped to come up with. Truly excellent job.

This is why I love the Dope.
I came in to give my appreciation to Gfactor also. I then noticed Bricker had made the lastest entry. “I bet he found something to nitpick,” I thought. In a good way, of course. But nope, just more praise.

Gfactor, your ability to digest all that case law, and then write a clear, concise (well, as much as the law allows) and entertaining report is truly outstanding. I am currently taking Business Law. I have learned how difficult that task is.

Thanks guys. I want to make clear that **Ed Zotti ** has everything to do with my reports being readable and engaging. That guy can edit. :smiley: Thanks Ed.

Although ** Gfactor** is on rock solid legal ground, there are plenty of police departments who won’t do this sort of thing. Whether it’s 'cause thry’re nice people, fear of being sued or whatever, I couldn’t pass comment.

I managed to dig up this PDF from Cincinnati.

Or there’s this from UT

If you’re forbidden from using an umarked police car, the likelyhood of being allowed to use a random car off the street has to be zero (at least in these juristrictions).

On a different note, there was scene in one of those cop films (Bad Boys??) where Will Smith chases down the bad guys in his Ferrari and it gets pretty beat up. He goes back to the station and his boss says something along the lines of “Our insurance only covers Official Police Cars, not personal vehicles. You’ll be paying for your own reapirs”.

I’d still like to hear you take on it, Bricker. :slight_smile:

And I still think it’s a relavent question, as, constituntitional law has long been Law. The process of incorperating the Bill of Rights into State law has been going on for quite some time.

And thanks Gfactor, might take me some time to assimilate all that information…but certainly worth it. Thanks.

Bricker, if you’re still interested in doing Staff Reports, of course, please email me. You’ve written two very interesting ones, and we’d be delighted to have you do more.

PEEP.

I should start a new thread for my own rant, but I find it pointless to say the Amendments serve as any kind or ruling. I don’t like how one is strictly for “free speech” I’ve seen people, in this country, go to court for using certain English words in speech which simply offended someone. The Amendments should be all-or-nothing, not “gee well he kinda made that guy mad so maybe in this case it doesn’t apply.”

But I digress…