Some others have made reference to their kids who are on the spectrum, but I don’t remember much if any speculation in this thread that my son is. Not that it’s not possible.
We did have him on a hospital waiting list for a comprehensive autism evaluation at one point, but it was a two-year wait. When his time finally came up, he was 14 or 15 by then and he fought us tooth and nail on doing it. I have literally dragged him kicking and screaming to the ER for psych evals in the past, but that time we decided to pick our battles. Autism didn’t seem to us like a perfect fit for his issues anyway-- he does have some qualities in common, but not others.
I really didn’t think my daughter was on the autism spectrum either, until we had the evaluation, and I talked to the psychologists. She doesn’t have things like repeated behaviors, odd or inappropriate facial expressions, or trouble communicating. She does have some trouble figuring out social queues, and lots of problems with emotional regulation and executive function. I’d guessed ADHD and anxiety, but the experts convinced me that it was more likely autism with maybe a bit of ADHD and anxiety mixed in.
Of course, it will be different for everybody, but these people are experts in making the diagnosis. There’s a good chance it’s not autism with your son, as diagnosing over the internet is pretty pointless.
I don’t know what an ER psych evaluation looks like, but with my daughter the university evaluation was very painless. I answered a bunch of questionnaires about her, while she “played” with some graduate students. They gave her specific tasks, and some types of quizzes. Mostly they spent 4-5 hours interacting with her in a very structured environment, while taking notes and recording results.
Now, I’m sure for adults they don’t ask you to build things with a Lego set from Frozen, but the point is, if you do want to get your son into an evaluation, you should work with them to prepare him for what it will be like, and it may be very different, and less antagonistic, than what he’s previously experienced.
My son had some of the issues described in the OP, although in other ways he is quite different. All I want to say is to ignore the people who are telling you to throw him out, or that he’s manipulating you, etc. You know your son better than anyone and it seems you have a good handle on it.
One thought I had is… Is there a social service agency in your area that provides job training, social skills training, etc.? My son attended a program like that (although it was part of a community college) and it was wonderful.
My other thought is… Your son is still only 19 years old. Yes, technically he’s an adult because he’s over 18. But some kids take a lot longer to develop, both during childhood and young adulthood. Don’t give up and assume that the way he is now at 19 is the last stage in his development. My son matured a LOT during his mid-to-late 20s.
Those were the times when he had his worst meltdowns in which he threatened to kill himself or harm others, in order to get him into an in-patient facility. The ER visit was a necessary interim step. It’s not any kind of comprehensive evaluation, it’s just a signoff from a doc that he needs the facility.
I’ll echo what @RivkahChaya said about getting a diagnosis. It sounds terrible, but we quite literally at the State thought of people almost entirely in terms of their diagnostic code (note–we weren’t healthcare providers, we funded programs and community mental health boards that provided care, so to some degree it was not our function to see them as people), and also terrible is the fact that that diagnostic code–as much as we were literally told “people aren’t their diagnosis” all the time…that diagnosis controls the levers for all kinds of other things in the system, in terms of funding and such.
It’s also unfortunately not easy to force someone into a diagnostic scenario as an adult without going through the unpleasant route that you had gone through previously where you had to involve the authorities–and that would have to occur during an episode where he is threatening suicide.
If it was me in your shoes, I’d probably try to find ways to get him to believe that getting some level of therapy and a firm diagnosis will make his life measurably better. Most people don’t like the idea of receiving mental health treatment, and it seems like he fought it pretty hard in the past, too. But there are some conditions that respond really well to relatively light treatment that sometimes doesn’t even have to include medication, all of that is impossible to tell without experts assessing him directly.
For what it’s worth, here are three observations from my own dealing with family issues:
1: If an adult offspring is causing trouble, the parents have to make sure they are each OK with themselves and together are OK as a couple, prioritized over helping the offspring manage. Otherwise the parents can’t keep it up anyway. This is like the oxygen mask on a plane – when they come down you should put your own on first so you remain able to help.
2: A person throwing a tantrum may appear out of control, but if they do not destroy the things they themselves like, they clearly have some control. For example, if your son doesn’t destroy his computer, then he’s modulating his tantrum and does have some control over it.
3: With the exception of underage children, people are not entitled to have a relationship with you without regard to how they treat you.
This is just an offering, but I’ve found these guidelines helpful.
I am really sorry to hear you are dealing with this awful mess, and wish the best for you and all concerned.
Oh yeaaaaah I’m going to echo the others in the thread by saying my daughter (11) has a LOT in common with the description of your son, and she is diagnosed (high-functioning) ASD. Doesn’t do well with disappointment: check. Minor hardship sends her into an emotional meltdown like a five-year-old: check. (My neurotypical 6-year-old is way better with his emotional regulation than she is!) Deals with people much better online than in person: check. (To be fair, this is also me, lol.) Is social with family but basically no one else: check.
What is untenable about the situation as it stands? He has a job, he can drive. Are the tantrums unmanageable? We’ve been working with my daughter about how her meltdowns are hard on others, and although sometimes she may need to have one, she at least has to learn to e.g. go to her room and do so, or take a break from whatever is frustrating her. We’ve also been emphasizing that regardless of whether a meltdown occurs, sometimes a problem still needs to be solved, and have been seeing some progress on that front (she’ll still often melt down, but then after a while take steps towards solving the problem).
It sounds also like you are worried he isn’t truly independent, especially socially speaking, and you would like him to be. Since I don’t know him, I have no idea how plausible this is. My daughter doesn’t really have friends (though she does socialize with her brother), and she doesn’t seem to be that interested in friends, either. I don’t know whether this will change.
Yeah, I think that’s fair. And I’ll echo that parenthetical too – my daughter’s had therapists but her teachers have honestly been way more helpful, though it might be time to try to get her back in therapy and see if it can help in any way.
…this post has been super light on advice, I guess I just wanted to commiserate?
Yes, the issue is the meltdowns. If not for them, I’d be fine with him living here for another year or two. 10-15 years? until he’s 29-34? Hell no! Hells to the no!! Even if he was the model of decorum and helped out more around the house.
I don’t think I’ve been vague at all about his meltdowns, but I’ll give more detail:
Is he a danger to himself? In the sense that he’s threatened to kill himself literally dozens if not hundreds of times over the years. He hasn’t said it much in the last couple years, except for two nights ago when he had the computer issues. Plus he’ll hit and slap at himself and writhe on the floor.
Is he a danger to others? He took out a kitchen carving knife and held it out toward his brother, freaking him out once years ago. He claims he was just joking around and I didn’t personally observe it, but he had been in a weird angry manic mood all day. That earned him his first in-patient psych stay. He’s punched me in the face several times in the past (fortunately he wasn’t a very hard hitter in the past, but he’s bigger and stronger now). He’s made vague mumbling threats about ‘killing them all’ under his breath. That all said, I don’t think he truly means harm to anyone, but he’s capable of an impulsive acts during a meltdown he would regret later. But I believe he would never plan to harm anybody.
Does he destroy property? He has in the past, His Middle school called the police once because he had a meltdown, broke some school property and ran off. In a separate incident, he broke a classmate’s laptop, throwing it down on the ground. He was invited to a birthday party, somebody said something to set him off, and he broke some sort of chalkboard or drawing board in a fit. Nothing too major so far at home but during a meltdown he’s capable of doing something stupid.
Is it deeply unpleasant, even terrifying? Yes, at the time, very much so.
But he can go for long stretches without anything setting him off.and be on his best behavior to others, like relatives he likes or his teachers when he was in high school. He can come across as very nice, likeable and articulate. And i mean, there is a very nice, likeable, articulate person in there.
I don’t think that’s true; there’s been some very good advice. And again, I’ve really appreciated the support from everybody in this thread. Thanks again.
I was going to say that your son’s behavior sounds very similar to my own. Although he’s only 7 years old, so it’s a bit more “age appropriate”. But more to the point, he was diagnosed with low level autism a few years ago. It will typically manifest itself in a sort of rigidity about certain situations that will cause him to melt down. i.e. he may not want to go to a particular restaurant or he is dead set on going to a particular restaurant, but the wait is too long. He’s also super obsessed with all things Lego. So I see a lot of similarities.
For us, it’s more about making sure he’s getting exposed to other people and activities. Otherwise he would default to playing with Lego and binge watching Lego Ninjago cartoons all day. But a lot of times, I have to do Jedi mind shit to get him on board.
Feel your pain… I have the same issues, though my son is only 17. He, unfortunately, is completely unlikely to finish high school despite my efforts. His sister was a straight-A high school student, currently flourishing in college, while he sits at home and does nothing. He’s been warned; if he doesn’t pass his classes this year (his junior year, though he is STILL working on some freshman classes) I have little to no desire to just pay for him to slack off; I was already living on my own when I was his age, and I am not likely to even bat an eye at putting him out, not with literal years of warnings at this point.
If your son had a problem with his liver or heart you wouldn’t have the same attitude. That’s the problem with an issue with the brain. It’s an organ like any other but being the creator of the sense of self it’s treated as if any issue with the brain is a choice. That’s just not the case.
I won’t pretend that my attitude in this case is admirable in any way; and definitely not normal. I realize I’m not wired the way most people are in this particular case.
Not every bad human behavior is a disorder of the brain, either. I see a lot of people chiming in with stories like @Kron’s but not very many sharing if these involve formally diagnosed mental health problems that an expert has made after evaluating the person. Nor do we know what recommendations or etc that expert made. Without that information it’s not really appropriate to just assume someone you’ve never met is behaving in a certain way because of a mental illness or mental health issue.
I don’t want to hijack solost’s thread by trying to explore the details of your family situation here - and I don’t even know if you’re interested in engaging in a discussion. But if you ever do want to talk about it, I for one would be fascinated to hear more in a separate thread.
Not every manifestation of the brain is a DSM-X/ICDX diagnosable mental illness, some people choose to do bad things because they want to do bad things. For example, I once stole a stereo from a department store when I was a teenager largely just to see if I could get away with it, I didn’t need a stereo and wasn’t planning to sell it for cash or etc. I did it to be a shit head, I did a lot of things to be a shit head as a kid. I think being honest most of us have done wrong things that we knew were wrong when we did them, for various bad reasons. These actions aren’t necessarily caused by mental illness.
I think you should adjust your expectations a little. Maybe not 10 years, but it’s hard to see a kid like you describe being ready to move out and support himself in a year or two, at 20 or 21. I would think 25 is a more reasonable goal. It seems like he’s really struggling with the transition from HS to adulthood, and COVID hit at the worst possible time.
I wonder if part of the problem is he feels like he’s a failure for not being able to move out, like he’s disappointing you. Hence the “I will go live in the WOODS. By MYSELF”. Making it clear that you are okay with it if he needs a few years might help. He might also feel like if he gets just good enough to live on his own, you’ll expect him to go–but he’s scared of that. He needs to know that as long as he’s improving, you aren’t going to kick him out as soon as he has 3 good months.
One thing that might give more dignity to him and you would be to start charging him rent. Something like a third of his take-home pay.
I would keep the conversations with him, with your wife, with therapists, very focused on the meltdowns. THAT’S what he needs to figure out right now: not how to find a forever job or a forever home, but to be able to not meltdown in a way that leaves the household shaken. And you guys need to find a way to react to the meltdowns that is easier on you. Clearly, once a meltdown-cycle starts it’s pretty devastating.