Uncle Bob was over on Thanksgiving and he surprised my by mentioning that he is fine with Trump as his president. I let his comment lie there while someone else quickly changed the subject.
As much as I loathe the idea of President Trump, I realized that I am not really well armed with specific facts demonstrating his unpresidentialness.
I will see Uncle Bob again on Christmas. I would like to have 4 or 5 objective reasons why Trump has no business being where he is.
I know I could easily seek these out myself, but I’m certain that many Dopers would be more than willing to assist with my specific request.
Here is what I envision:
Uncle Bob: “I’m ok with Trump being president”.
Mustard: "So you’re ok with:
[ul]
[li]A president who…[/li][li]A president who…[/li][li]A president who…[/li][/ul]
I am looking for points that are substantive, concise, and factual. Specific (brief) examples of each shortcoming would be awesome.
It doesn’t work that way. If Uncle Bob is like most Trump fans, then Uncle Bob likes Trump. He likes Trump’s attitude, that he “calls it how it is”, and pisses off the ‘right’ people. The policies he’s enacted probably don’t have much to do with it.
Essentially, what you’re asking is “Give me five things for my uncle to rationalise on the spot until he loses patience, says ‘I’m entitled to my opinion’, and changes the subject”. Seriously, what’s the point? Has anyone ever changed their mind because of something a relative said at the dinner table?
Honestly, if I live to be a thousand I’ll never understand this American obsession with using politics to ruin holidays.
Chances are, every “You’re OK with a President who…” will be countered by “That’s a lie, the liberal media is lying to you” or “They all do that, look at this thing Obama/Clinton/Perosi/Biden did.”
What people most love about trump is that he trumpets the ugliest things in their hearts, justifying and celebrating them. How can you “argue” against that? Uncle Bob didn’t embrace trump for rational reasons, so why do you think rationality will convince him to turn away from him?
Ok this is something I’ve been thinking about and researching lately. My key takeaway thus far comes from Jonathan Haidt’s Moral Foundations Theory and some supporting research. The idea is that there are five moral foundations (though Haidt proposes a sixth - Liberty) - Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, and Sanctity/Degradation. While Liberals are generally concerned with Care and Fairness, Conservatives are concerned with all five. Additionally, conservatives are more likely to consider others in an outgroup, where something like Loyalty will not apply. The key to persuading others is to speak to their values. I recall last year a thread similar to this one wherein people were recommending using “Trump puts kids in cages” as an argument. When offered to a Trump supporter, this argument will only strengthen support because that person considers Mexicans an outgroup, and one that violates Sanctity, Fairness, and Authority.
You must find out what THEY care about and frame the arguments in terms of values that matter to them. A study on argument framing showed that when conservatives were given an argument against Trump framed in terms of Fairness (discriminates against Muslims, etc), 75% of participants said they would vote for him. When given an argument framed in terms of Loyalty (dodged the draft,etc), only 56% said they would likely vote for him. 19 Fricking points! You can frame any issue you come up with in terms of any value. I really wish this message would get through to whoever is crafting campaign messaging for Dems in 2020
A few other things I’ve learned is to start your conversation criticizing something about the Democrats to develop rapport and to employ a Socratic method so the other person is coming to the conclusion that you want themselves. Good luck and let us know how it goes. If you know what’s important to him, I’ll help you craft an approach.
With that in mind, the OP might like to mention that Trump screwed over the Kurds after they fought ISIS with us, and left them at the mercy of a dictator who wants to wipe them out. You don’t get much more disloyal than that.
Yes, to the extent the other person will consider the Kurds an ingroup. I’d say stuff like:
Trump broke a promise and a man is only as good as his word. (If he’s religious, be sure he knows that’s from Proverbs 20:6)
Trump violated the **Sacred ** oath of our very own Marine Corps - Semper Fi
Trump forced our soldiers to break THEIR promises. He violated the trust of our soldiers.
To keep the Kurds a member of his ingroup, send him this letter to the Kurds from an army wife who has pictures on the mantle of her fireplace of the Kurdish soldiers who saved her husband’s life:
What we are seeing a lot of is Conservatives who are willing to admit that his demeanor is not what they look for in a president, but like what he’s done as far as conservative policies. I would point out that his main “successes”, tax cuts and judicial appointments, were things that any conservative president could have done. Congress did the tax cuts and the judicial appointments were picked out by others. The aspects of his administration that have been truly his, the border wall, and trade deals have been failures. Meanwhile he’s a compulsive liar, who is dividing the country, setting nephew against uncle, and is tarnishing the image of our nation abroad.
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” - Tolstoy
A big point of this article is that people will believe lots of false things - as long as doing so ensures that they remain a part of the social group. In this case, a part of the “Trumper” group that loves Fox News and loves Trump. There is a great fear about being tossed out of your group into the wilderness.
The OPs problem is thinking that any political issue is black or white. Give me most anti-Trump point and it can be turned a point supporting Trump.
Putting children in cages?
Blame their parents for dragging them here to commit a crime
Australia treats its “immigrants” including children a lot worse
Our immigration policy is a lot more lenient than most countries. Do you have any chance of immigrating to the United Kingdom? No, but anyone has a chance to immigrate to the United States.
The trade war with China? We need to stand up to them because
China has unfair expansionist policies (Spratley Islands)
China steals our intellectual policy
China can out-compete the US in the world economy since they use slave labor.
Those are just two sets of counterarguments I came up with off the top of my head. Can you answer those? Can you respond to all of the counterarguments a Trump supporter can come up with? As an example
We had a person over for Thanksgiving that insisted the impeachment was a coup because the Dems are afraid of Trump. He admits to (and is proud of) the fact that he doesn’t follow any news. Every fact we presented was countered with “I was talking to my friends” who are just as ignorant as he is.
Yes part of Haidt’s findings (see my above post) is that political opinions are not arrived at through reason and providing facts counter to a moral of political position usually serves to entrench the position further unless it attacks the intuitive foundation upon which it’s built. Moral reasoning is, for the most part, a post hoc justification.
OP, it also helps if you attack Trump’s policies while supporting his ends (whether you do or not). It’s harder to get a Trump supporter to believe that immigration is good than it is to get him to believe that a wall isn’t the way to go about preventing it. You will also gain moral bona fides and rapport if you agree (true or not) that preventing illegal immigration is important to you. Explain that Democrats have a plan that includes technology updated since the classical era (cameras, drones, Rottweilers with frickin laser beams attached to their heads, etc)
Guiding off that “true or not” parenthetical, what’s the “true or not” followup when they ask about that plan? Yeah, okay, cameras, drones, even Rottweilers, okay; but what’s the “true or not” answer to interesting; and what’s the plan for dealing with them once they get eyeballed? You now have my full attention; can you loudly tell me this big idea, and only then mutter ‘true or not’ under your breath?
Oh I didn’t mean you should make up fake policy proposals. I meant that your argument will have more force if you say that you agree that preventing illegal immgration is important, even if you don’t really care about the issue. The Democrat’s proposals I mentioned are real (except, of course, the Rottweilers). Article:
I looked through that, but I may be missing it; once someone gets spotted by drones or cameras [del]or Rottweilers[/del], once they’re on the radar — which, hey, if you’d like to spell out that it’s literal radar, yeah, okay, fine — what do they actually plan to do if they see someone who’s nearing the border, or someone who just stepped across the border three seconds ago, or someone who right now has one foot on one side of the border and the other on the other?
I believe the idea is to send agents where viable and/or capture photos - perhaps ultimately to be used with facial recognition. I’m not well versed on the issue - I was just showing op how to frame arguments in terms of targeting specific proposals rather than their objective.
said he wanted to fuck his underage daughter - on-air with Howard Stern
said “confiscate guns now; due process later” - tweeted twice
bragged about mafia dealings and obstruction of justice - in tweets
said there are nice Nazis - my dad and uncles fought Nazis; were they on the wrong side?
cheats on his taxes, so the rest of us get to pay-up for him
could kill the Owned-by-Russia accusations by releasing his financials
hires undocumented aliens to work his resorts - told by the workers
fraudulently draft-dodged (said his podiatrist’s daughter); now attacks heroes, pardons thugs
destroys official documents (rips up his papers) and alters others (like a NOAA weather map)
Those are some top-of-my-head factual points. I could add cheating on all his wives, bragging of sexual assaults, molesting underage beauty contestants, stealing tips from his resort staff, and hating household pets. It’s a start.
Those just paint a picture of his morals and ideologies.
He’s also pretty much destroyed any good standing or trust with the rest of the world. Not to mention fucking over farmers and giving his buddies a nice big tax break that is going to hurt all Americans.
Shortly after Trump’s inauguration, a friend of mine compiled a list of news articles attacking Trump or the GOP more generally. Unfortunately that list was constructed before much of his criminality came to light. (And some of the URL links may no longer work.) But I may try to dig it out and send it on request via e-mail or PM.
Once or twice when I’ve gotten into discussion, I’ve made the mistake of going with the fact that Trump had his “Charity” pay Don Junior’s $7 Boy Scout fee. It’s chickenfeed — this criminal held up $400 million in urgent military aid for a personal political favor — but that $7 “charitable donation” really impressed me about how contemptible and picayune this loathsome slob is.
That’s right up there with “stealing tips from his resort staff”. Better, because illegal. But his followers don’t care about little moral foibles. Or big ones. Hail the God-Emperor!