I believe such an interpretation necessitates ignoring the tenor of my cumulative posts in this thread.
The activity described here is - IMO - somewhere on the continuum between a tap on the shoulder and whipping his dick out. I think that acting like a professional involves speaking directly when possible, instead of running to an authority as a first resort. A good number of supposed “professionals” disagree with me.
And I agree with recent statements by niblet and boyo:
One reason this is such a difficult subject to discuss is that no matter how many qualifiers you include, a good portion of your listeners will readily misintepret your message if it suits their worldview.
I’m just responding to what you wrote. If you think the touches were too ambiguous to form a judgement around, as it sounds like you’re saying now, it makes me wonder why you think Johanna should report it to her higher ups at all, as you’ve suggested in your previous post?
I’m not misinterpreting you intentionally to “suit my worldview” (whatever that means). And quoting other people’s posts doesn’t really clarify the stuff in your own posts, but thanks anyway.
The “tenor” of your contributions of this thread has been to focus on the actions of the OP and her female coworker, not on this guy who upfront you said was behaving inexcusably. But hey, maybe that’s my worldview talking.
With all this talk about how the OP is making much ado over nothing , I’m kind of surprised to see you resort to name calling over something as small as polite disagreement. You must have a low, hypersensitive threshold for dickiness, sir. That is, if you’re refering to me. I don’t know since you mentioned no names. You just call another poster a dick and let it hang in the ether ambiguiously. That seems rather passive aggressive and indirect. And there’s a whole heap of irony in that, but I shall say no more.
ywtf, we’re responding to the inexplicable hesitation that **Johanna **expressed here:
Bolding mine. Some of us are dumbfounded as to how she could have been so sure in the beginning, then essentially gave reign to her doubt as he touched her inappropriately repeatedly. This is the ambiguity we’d hope would get doused with a simple, “Knock it off, mutha fucka!!!” followed by a swift karate chop ala Miss Piggy.
Ask your mom how she’d feel about a stranger touching her ribs near her breasts. Do you have sisters? Ask them what they think about it. Girlfriend? Spouse? Ask them too. Ask them if they have any ambiguity at all about being touched there.
Then tomorrow, when you go into the office, just randomly start touching the women on their ribs by their breasts. Explain to them that your actions are ambiguous and they don’t have grounds to go to HR (or whoever’s in charge) until you’ve talked it out it first.
Let us know how all that works out for you.
They do, if they think that describing themselves as ‘touchy-feely’ entitles them to touch others whenever, however, and wherever they want while simultaneously imposing a preemptive obligation on those others to address the matter solely in a way that the touchy-feely one dictates.
Touchy feely people are like untrained puppies who get muddy paws all over your clean clothes and then pee on the rug when you scold them. Other dog people probably won’t mind but it’s unreasonable to assume that everyone will (or should) be ok with this sort of thing.
So there’s no ambiguity - the unreasonableness is on the part of the touchy-feely.
Look, I understand that. But it’s one thing to say:
“Hmmm, that seems kind of borderline to me…maybe it’s not what you think it is.”
and it’s another to say:
“The guy kept touching you and you didn’t say anything!?..That’s weak and unprofessional…how do you expect women to be treated as equals!”
I’m arguing against the second attitude, because it unnecessarily makes it a gender thing. It also overlooks the fact that when it comes to other breaches of professionality in the workplace (bullying, violating personal property, telling racial jokes in the lunchroom, etc), we aren’t so hard on victims when they don’t confront the people bothering them or creating hostile environments.
So Johanna didn’t behave in a manner you’d expect. Okay. For some reason I and others aren’t so stuck on this detail, but I can understand that others are. But the question of what to do when you think someone is being inappropriate like this in the workplace is legitimate debate fodder. There’s a case to be made that the toucher should be confronted first. But I can clearly see the opposite argument too, and I was trying to show that. I don’t think it’s black and white thing.
In this case, under these circumstances, yeah I’m stuck on this detail. Because I’m only talking about the what I think about this situation. I’m not talking about all inappropriate situations or even debating whether the touch was inappropriate. I’m talking about Johanna and her choices and what has happened to her and how I feel about it and what I think she should do and why. I don’t really give a shit within the confines of this thread to talk about all the associated off-shoot topics. I’m not even talking about “what to do when you think someone is being inappropriate in the workplace” and debating what is and is not inappropriate.
I’m talking about when a creep plays that game of “I’m not touching you!” and how to handle it. I never ever ever said “maybe it’s not what you think it is”, I said, “Why the hell are you doubting what you think it is? Of course it’s what you think it is! And why are you letting him do this? And why are you acting like a delicate flower when you are clearly a strong woman who can take care of herself??”
And it IS a gender thing. Why does this kind of thing happen so less frequently TO men? Because men won’t stand for it, that’s why. Cuz a man isn’t going to be afraid he’ll offend a near stranger by making it clear he doesn’t like what you’re doing.
Here, I’ll repost what I said awhile back:
I want women to stand up and say they are not going to take it anymore. I want creeps to be taking a big chance when they pull this shit, instead of knowing that there is a greater likelihood that he’ll get away with it because women are taught to be nice. Those mutha fuckahs should have to weigh carefully the risk/benefit, knowing they are putting a lot on the line including shame, social sanction, and possibly loss of a job by playing the ‘pretend I didn’t really just touch your boob’ card. You have the creep and the unassertive women he preys on. I think women should do everything in their power to remove one of these factors, the one the have direct control over, the one they KNOW they can unequivically do something about. Of course go to HR, but stop being prey.
God, enough. If there is, I fear to say it, ambiguity in what I mean, then I’ll sign up for a writing course, because I think explaining myself fifty-eleven times is should be sufficient.
How about the hypothesis that women (and other men) are less likely to get their jollies off by feeling men up on the sly? I’m also going to off on a limb and say that men may be less likely to feel threatened by such behavior as well. “Men won’t stand for it”, as gallant as it sounds, doesn’t seem to be the likeliest theory for why this happens.
Maybe I live on a different planet, but men are reluctant to speak up for themselves all the time. I see this behavior all the time in public places and even at work. We’re focused on sexual harrassment in this thread, but again, I mention other common workplace complaints. I’ve seen men belittled by their bosses and taken advantage of by their more dominant peers, and most of them behave just as women do.
But you’ve seen for yourself in this thread how others can doubt a woman’s veracity or crediblity when she talks about stuff like this, so there’s hardly any reason to be surprised that women become self-doubters as well. Your frustration seems a bit misplaced in light of that.
Who is demanding that you explain yourself repeatedly? You’re choosing to do that. You think women should speak up when men get touchy feely. I get that. We all do. No one has said otherwise.
Actually, I think I understand DrDeth. Basically his point is either respond directly to the person or report it to HR, but don’t spread rumors. I’m sure he’s equal opportunity in that he doesn’t want men spreading rumors, either.
said:
One touch on the arm is different in scale to touching the torso, or leaning over and brushing up against. I am going to side with the ladies on this one, from the descriptions given I would think he’s being creepy, too.
**you with the face ** said:
Why do you jump to the most clear cut example of inappropriate behavior*? In the context of something borderline or confusing or ambiguous, saying something directly to the person has the advantage of clearing up any misconceptions about space. I’m not talking about groping, I’m talking about leaning close to the person, or bumping them with a bag, or standing a little too close, or in one of the examples I gave from my personal experience, the chairs in a hotel conference room were butt-up against each other, and I sat down next to a guy, and he asked me to slide over because it interfered with his personal space. He didn’t need to scream “rape” and punch me in the nose, but he was uncomfortable and made a polite request. Which I courteously complied with.
I can understand someone not being prepared, or being totally so surprised that they don’t do anything but freeze and the guy walks off, or deciding after the fact that the pattern of behavior seemed suspicious. But if it’s bothering you at the time, and it’s not an obviously obnoxious behavior, then a polite request is in order. Again, it all depends upon the scope of the “infraction”.
So you go to HR, and state, “You know, this was bothering me, and on reflection I think it represents a pattern of inappropriate contact.” HR will take the complaint, have a word with him, and maybe make a note in is file. Not likely to be any serious disciplinary action yet, but a note to look for future patterns. If the exact same contact is had, and the victim decides at the time that something is amiss and makes a remark, and the guy decides to cool it because he got caught and wants to maintain plausible deniability**, and then the victim reports it to HR as well, the same situation and same consequences are likely. The difference is, though, that person stood up for herself.
However, if it truly was an ambiguous behavior, if it truly was a case of differences in personal space or accidentally not paying attention to what the bag was doing or cultural differences, by speaking directly to the guy, he may apologize because it was unintentional, and then be aware. And maybe the interaction will lead the “victim” to conclude it wasn’t intentionally creepy, but just a misunderstanding, and not report it to HR, because there was no harm, no foul.
And then nobody has to go around whispering, “Oh, stay away from Mr. Jones, he’s creepy.”
If someone grabs your ass, then go to HR. Go to your supervisor. Hell, post a banner over his cubicle for all I care. Even if you were so shocked that he got his grope and was off down the hallway while you were frozen with your mouth open, instead of swatting his hand and saying “Next time I remove that hand and staple it to your face.”
*Okay, folding her over the table and humping her might be more clear cut, but come on.
** Going with the worst possibility for the case of argument.
You foolish bottom-feeding troll. You’re basing your opinion on photographs taken several years ago, before I began hormones, which make a big difference in looks. Since you’re obviously ignorant of the transition process, you’re unaware of the progress I’ve made in the years since. I turned out to be an attractive woman, and I’m perceived as a woman by the public. Everyone calls me “she” and “ma’am”-- I could tell when I’d made enough improvement because at first I didn’t get the right pronouns. Now I do. There is no shame in starting from unpromising beginnings and going on to succeed. I transitioned to full time two years ago, I legally changed my name and gender designation, and since then I’ve been just a woman and consistently, publicly acknowledged as such. No one in real life casts any doubt on my gender now. My transition is a success, including my looks. You don’t know what I look like now, and you’re not going to find out either, because I have learned to guard my privacy from pathetic jerks like you. So shut the fuck up, you pathetic transphobic idiot.
Johanna, I don’t know what your old photos looked like but I wouldn’t take Vinyl Turnip’s remarks as any reflection on your former appearance. He really is just a bigoted idiot. He’d have said the same kinds of things even if he had never seen your photo.
I agree with you completely. In this case, it’s different from most situations because I won’t get a second chance to be assertive, because I’m not ever going to encounter the predator again. If we worked in the same place continually, and if he pulled that shit again, I feel I’ve learned my lesson about speaking out immediately. I’ve said as much pretty far upthread, but that seems to have been overlooked or forgotten, if everyone is still debating about what I should have done. I’m not debating it.
I realized that the inappropriate touching of me had crossed a line, it had been deliberate and not accidental, when I thought back about it on the evening of the day it happened, after I’d left work. When it was too late to confront directly, and I didn’t even have the perv’s contact information to tell him privately. That influenced my decision in this particular case, which is that something still had to be done about it, before he goes on to do that to more women. So I took the only remedy possible at this point.
I’m ignorant of many things, though not fully of the effects of hormones. I acknowledged that I had only seen one undated photo, in which—in my own opinion only—you did not look passably female. If you now do, congratulations on your success.
**Lamia’s **eerily intimate divination of my motives aside, I did not single you out for undeserved ridicule, and I freely admit my suspicions may have been unfounded. If so, I apologize.
This keeps being repeated, but no one is explaining how all this confusion–in the context of the OP’s story–can be cleared up from confronting someone who is doing something that they find inappropriate…even if there is ambiguity there.
If someone kept touching me “accidentally” several times on my leg, torso, or bra line, and in a setting in which such “accidents” are unlikely but not impossible to occur, what exactly should I say to the toucher to eliminate all questions and concerns about ambiguity so that I feel okay reporting it to HR? I’m honestly curious about this.
Let’s say the woman says, “Hey could you back up off me? You’re encroaching upon my space.” The guy will probably bat his eyes innocently and say sorry, he didn’t know what his hands were doing, he’ll refrain from doing it in the future. And let’s say he does stop…for that particular woman. But he’s still doing it to others, up until the point that they tell him to politely back off just like the first woman did. The pattern keeps getting repeated because no one makes a formal complaint about his behaviors. He’s getting away with what he can because no one wants to make a fuss to management…and no one wants to start “rumors about Mr. Jones” either, so no one even figures out that there is pattern worth putting together. And he’s being a nuisance just the same.
Let’s say the guy is honestly clueless and didn’t know his hands were straying. Or let’s say the woman was mistaken about his intentions and it’s all some big ole misunderstanding. She reports him to HR without first confronting him. HR then knocks on his door and there is some arbitration between him and his accuser. The conclusion is that only if there is another complaint about his touchiness, that actions will be taken. Although this has got to be painful to him, its a warning that is little actual consequence unless another complaint comes in. Assuming no one has an axe to grind and he keeps his hands to himself, he should be okay. But at least there is a record there than be worked with.
I reached for the most egregious example of inappropriateness because, as it has been pointed out, harassment is ultimately defined by the harrassed…not the offender. If someone touched me in an offensive way (whether that be on the ass, leg, or chest), and I suspected that it was done intentionally (even if there was room for doubt), confronting the person who touched me wouldn’t strike me as a professional necessity before reporting the problem to my boss or HR. Why? Firstly, because the offender would NOT be the most objective person to set the record straight if I did have doubt. And secondly because if I have a good reason to believe that guy was acting inappropriately and damn well knows it, whether or not I informed him that he’s being inappropriate doesn’t change the fact that he is. It’s like telling a coworker to stop taking stuff out of your desk drawers when you’re not around. Somethings should be known upfront already.
Again, you’re focusing on looking out for him but at the possible cost to others. If someone does something questionable to me and I suspect that there was something untoward about it, I could care less if he apologizes and is suddenly “aware”. Perhaps the only thing he’s now aware of is that he messed with the wrong person, and that he has to look elsewhere now. And I don’t think Johanna’s situation is as gray as “differences in personal space” if we factor in her female co-worker’s account in addition to her own.
If it truly was an ambigous behavior or a behavior that reasonable people find to be okay, the complaint to HR will probably go no where. Reporting it to a third party that is trained in this area doesn’t strike me as a bad idea.
Since I doubt the guy will actually confess to doing anything even if he as guilty as sin, I’m quite sure that he’ll do his best to convince her that it was a misunderstanding and to not report it to HR because there was no harm, no foul. So this very well may happen.