Yeah, and you’ve got your buddies gathered around and oinking.
Exactly. These types of guys COUNT on the woman giving them the benefit of the doubt or not speaking up or just putting up with this shit. It takes a great deal of courage to speak up for yourself in a public place, even more courage to do so in a business meeting. I really don’t see this kind of thing happening by “accident”: stroking a woman’s hair during a seminar is not an accident (I still can’t believe this woman didn’t pull away and say get off me, but apparently she didn’t), touching a woman’s side near her breast in a business setting is not an accident–getting shoved by a crowded busload of people into a woman’s decolletage when said bus stops suddenly is. Apologies are made and life moves on.
I don’t like that the burden of this seems to rest on the victim (be it male or female) in cases like this. Keep your hands to yourself unless you know the woman as a friend, lover, sister, mother, daughter or cousin. And even then, I’d watch it, because you don’t touch your sister the way you touch your lover etc–surely this is not news to anyone.
The thing that is being missed here is that IMO the same rules apply to women preying on men. I know a man who reported a woman in my work place, and rightly so. In nursing, we wear thin cotton scrubs and we touch a LOT. It is not a conventional business environment. But this one woman persisted in teasing this one male nurse about the fit of his scrubs. When she yanked on the ties that keep those scrubs up–all in “good fun”–he went to HR, because his protests weren’t being heard by her. She did not get fired, but she was put on probation and their schedules were changed to prevent contact. She quit some time later due to health issues.
I bring this up to demonstrate that for me, this is not just a evil man preys on helpless woman scenario; this shit happens all the time.
You are right, it is unfair that the burden is on the victim. But the thing is, the burden is always on the victim, because if the other person were doing what they were supposed to, there wouldn’t be a victim.
Oh, go back to spouting poems that convince you what a heroic gender warrior you’re being. When I see any of my buddies in this thread I’ll let you know.
Yes, the burden is on the victim to report it–not to be polite to the offender, not to doubt themselves (they do that anyway) and give the offender the benefit of the doubt, not to be blamed for “creating or making a scene” which is done often when someone DOES cry foul at the time of the offense.
How about said victim is doing the best he or she can at the time? How about some support instead of several pages of flack?
All I asked is that it be reported, instead of “rumored”.
Well, this brings up one twist to sexual harrasment that hasn’t really been hit head on in this post.
In sexual harrassment, the “victim” gets to define whether or not SH occurred. Intent is not required on behalf of the harrasser. If the victim considers herself to have been harrassed, then by definition she was harrassed.
This somewhat unusual standard is a good reason for my belief that in most situations (and certainly the OP) a person who considers something inappropriate ought to at least express their displeasure in some manner before pursuing official action.
The same way “professional behavior” would have folk not act as the harrasser did in the OP, I believe it would have the object of his attention tell him to cut it out before getting personnel involved.
Heck, envision this situation. Guy touches woman inappropriately. Wman says cut it out, and he does. Then woman goes to HR. When confronted, the guy can say, “I did’t know. When she said stop, I stopped.” HR says, “Okay, but we’ll keep a note in your file, and if it happens again you’re gone.” Just impresses me as a far better situation all around from what the OP describes - 2 women sitting mute, and then going to HR with allegations of a lengthy practice of harrassment.
Everyone who agrees with me is great, while everyone who disagrees with my actions, regardless of how they phrase their concerns, are evil oinkers. Take that, men!
Well, I’m female, and I hope I’m neither lumped in with the oinkers OR the cluckers!!
I hope to be an independent brayer. That’s my goal.
Please cite where I have given several pages of flack. Or any flack.
All I have tried to do is show why speaking directly to the person is appropriate no matter the circumstances. And tried to understand Johanna’s response.
Frankly there’s a lot of gender driven axe-grinding going on from both sides that is a distraction.
I agree with you, Irishman. The only person brushing up against misongyny, IMO, is DrDeth. But I assume he’s an equal opportunity anti-rumorist. I find myself squarely in the camp of most of the - assumedly - male posters here. I, frankly, haven’t seen a single post that calls into question the veracity of** Johanna’s** claims (except DrDeth), I haven’t seen any posts that say a woman should just suck it up, and I haven’t seen any blame the victim posts. And, I know that I’d be coming in gang-busters if I’d seen any. I have seen a lot of I-assume-female posters going overboard, IMO, on their reactions to a creepy but solvable issue. Man, I’m going to regret posting this, but if you don’t want to be seen as victims, stop acting like victims. A lot of women had to fight really hard to be taken seriously in the workplace and for sexual harassment laws. You do them no service by being unable to tell a simple letch to keep his fingers to himself. And you do a lot, IMO, that contributes to men seeing all women not as professionals and equals but as lawsuits waiting to happen. I personally think it’s much more a message of empowerment to tell Johanna that I do not doubt for a moment that she is, in fact, strong enough to deal with life instead of my god, you delicate flower! you can’t be expected to say no.
Hueeeet! digs for truffles
Incidentally, today a female co-worker gratuitously touched my arm as she was telling me that a paper she had just put on the counter near me was not to be filed. I felt violated - after all, she had just touched me near[sup]1[/sup] my private parts! :eek: What’s worse is we don’t even have an HR department for me to go to, and if I complained to our boss it would just be my word against hers, and she has seniority on me. I spent the rest of the day crying in the toilet. 
Oh, wait, no I didn’t. :smack: I actually treated the uninvited contact as the trivial thing it was. Fancy getting that muddled up.
“Near” as in “a grenade going off where she touched me would have had my 'nads off, no error”.
Note that my only doubts as to “veracity” was when it was a “Freind of a Freind” story, not an actual expereince by Johanna. As we all know here on the SDMB, FoaF tales always have doubtful veracity. Johanna even admitted she didn’t know the other female co-worker well.
But you are correct, no one has blamed the victim, no one has said she should do nothing. Several posters have made large strawmen out of the “blame the victim” canard.
Sigh. Well, now there’s one. (In response to Malacandra.)
And DrDeth, did you not, in response to bobkitty say “assumes facts not in evidence” regarding the old pervert?
Practically speaking though, what does it change? Unless the default assumption is that close personal touching in the office is okay unless the touchee dissents to it after the fact, I fail to see what difference it makes whether someone expresses displeasure about such action to their harrasser. If someone grabs my ass in a meeting, they should know they are being inappropriate already. If that needs to spelled out to them, then I’d question whether they should stay employed.
Why, exactly? If you found out that one of your coworkers liked to take personal items out of your desk whenever you stepped away from the office, would it be unprofessional of you to report this to HR instead of first telling them to knock it off? Especially if it was clear that you and this other person were not friends or even acquaintances for which such behavior might be okay?
The outcomes ultimately are the same, though. The guy still gets written up. The only difference is that the guy can come up with a story to HR about how he stopped (Wow, for all of a day or two? Gold star for you, big guy!) when he was called out on his bad behavior.
In fairness, I uh, think I might actually have made one too. Just a little one. Hardly noticeable, really.
A skepticism borne partially from the OP’s reputation as a crusading feminist hammer in search of nails. And partially— well, may as well open the worm-can— admittedly, I base this on the memory of a single image that I saw I know not when nor where, but in it the OP bore more than a passing resemblance to John Lithgow’s character in The World According to Garp, albeit not quite as convincingly female. Fortuitously, the Creepy Government Sexual Harrasser revealed himself to be either an equal opportunity pervert, or keenly unobservant, when he targeted the OP for the same abuse as given his first alleged victim.
Quite possible it did all happen exactly as described; it just taxes the imagination somewhat.
The point was that the actions were ambiguous. No one had their ass or boob grabbed. There were arm touches, and – I’m paraphrasing here from somewhere upthread – “a touch on the side near the breast”.
And the point of saying something to the offender is to remove the ambiguity, if they continue the action after it is objected to. There are a lot of touchy-feely people out there, and they don’t all deserve a complaint to HR without notice or warning.
Okay, then, please see my earlier posts on page one.
Johanna seems sure that the constellation of touches made for a non-ambigious pattern, especially in light of her coworkers testimony. Since we are not her, we don’t know this guy’s history, and we weren’t witnesses to the event, we aren’t in the best position to give this guy the benefit of the doubt.
Dinsdale’s comment didn’t seem to make any qualifiers about ambuiguity anyway. It seems his opinion is even if the behavior is overt, it’s unprofessional to report it to HR without first letting the toucher know their contact was unwanted.
Omigod, my head is going to explode.