This must be that “female logic” thing I’ve heard about:
[ol]
[li]Men say they want sex more than women do[/li][li]Therefore, they must be willing to gratify themselves without a woman’s leave[/li][li]Therefore, if a woman perceives some touch as sexual in nature, obviously the male toucher did.[/li][/ol]
It wouldn’t quite pass muster as a classic example of a sorites, though. :dubious:
All well and good, but for future reference, the quote tags are only for real quotes.
G
All well and good, but when creating hypothetical quotes is made a crime, only criminals will create hypothetical quotes.
How can you speak for anyone else when you say it will make them feel better? I don’t think it make me feel better at all. Awkward and anxious would be a better way of describing it.
And when you say “he feels better because he can change the behavior” that presumes that he doesn’t know what he’s doing and simply needs someone to tell him what most people learned in kindergarten. Why should anyone care about making him feel better anyway?
If someone was sneakily trying to cop a feel on me, my first impulse would not be to have a polite word with them. I have a problem with assertiveness in these type of situations as well, so I’m not saying I’d be quick to curse him out. But if I did speak up, there would be no “please” and “thank yous” in my response.
I understand that, as Joe Jackson said, “It’s different for girls.” But one thing this guy and many other guys I’ve spoken with dislike in a work setting is co-workers who are unwilling or unable to simply and directly express themselves in response to a situation, and who instead pursue whatever agenda behind closed doors.
It is frustrating to continually hear of one group or another who wants to be “treated the same” and given equal opportunity. But then when they find themselves uncomfortable in a particular situation they demand whatever types of accommodations. You’re an adult, in a work setting. Someone does something that you KNOW is inappropriate, tell them to knock it off.
The key is if you are unsure.
bengangmo said:
Some of it can be a power thing, but I think it really is about touching. It’s controlled, limited, masked as accidental or innocuous, but it is about the touching.
you with the face said:
Perhaps I over spoke. But what sounds like makes you anxious and awkward is that you don’t know if it’s intentional or accidental, innocuous or lecherous. You don’t know how you will be perceived for speaking up. My point was that you can speak up, even if you couch it politely so you don’t come off as a bitter overly-sensitive witch looking for something to blame on men, but rather someone who is simply looking for common courtesy. If you’re worried about seeming like you’re overreacting, then don’t slap him in the face and scream “keep your hands off, you filthy pig”, but do say, “Please respect my boundaries” or “It’s crowded in here, could you perhaps shift over a little” or some other polite response that still conveys the message “stop it”.
I prefaced that remark with the caveat that maybe it was innocuous, maybe he was unaware. And I followed up with the fact that it could be intentional, so I really don’t see why you can’t read what I wrote. As for why anyone should care about him feeling better, I meant feeling better than getting HR putting a note in his file that he’s a lecherous coot when all he did was not pay attention to his bag and it bumped her on the leg. See, it all depends upon the situation, but I was addressing that gray area where the woman was unsure if the contact was inappropriate or not, if she should respond or not. I’m saying yes. Even if it is innocuous, respond. You don’t have to scream bloody murder, but make him aware.
If someone tried to cop a feel on you, I wouldn’t have any problem with you leaving out the please and thank you. My point wasn’t someone groping you, it was the situation where the woman was unsure what was happening. Well, if it makes you uncomfortable, then say something.
Oh no worries. I didn’t get that from your first response.
Let’s see if I can come at this from a different angle. And to be clear, I’m not talking about casual contact between friends: handshakes, back-slapping, noogies. People who know each other well, and who operate on a level of social equality, have a different social contract with each other. IF friends like to give each other wet willies, that’s their business (although I might wonder about their professionalism during office hours.)
Also, I’m talking about the US here, so that’s where my cultural assumptions are based on. My understanding of Europe & Asia, although not first hand, suggest that similar attitudes regarding this sort of touching apply.
Now then. In the US, strangers don’t touch each other intimately. Often they don’t touch each other casually beyond a manly handshake. On top of that, we, as a nation, are inclined to see a woman’s breasts as sexual rather than nurturing. In the US, touching a woman’s breast is an intimate act. Accidental casual contact, like say on a crowded bus, inspires a polite response of, “excuse me”.
In the US, it is not appropriate for an acquaintance of a few days to touch a woman on the side of her breast, casually, repeatedly, and in public.
Therefore, it is not necessary to explain this to the Toucher at the point of contact. Unless he’s got some type of developmental disorder or maybe he was raised in the Amazonian wilds, he knows that the cultural standard in which he was raised. If the Touchee confronts the Toucher, he or she is not imparting new information. (Really, what’s the Toucher going to say? “Oh, you don’t like it when I touch your breasts in public? What’s wrong with you? No one else minds.”)
Furthermore, there may be strong tactical reasons why confronting the Toucher at the point of contact would provoke an escalation. Sometimes the best option is to retreat and summon the cavalry.
Now I get why some people have distaste for calling in HR without confronting the Toucher. Right or wrong, it smacks of being a ‘tattletale’ and no one like a tattletale at age 4 or age 40. But it’s better to call for backup and not need it than it is to not call and suffer for it. It’s not the Touchee’s responsibility to respond in a way the Toucher finds comfortable. The Touchee is not obligated to limit his or her options to things the Toucher’s ok with. The Toucher’s the one who broke the social norms - the Toucher doesn’t get to decide the penalty for that.
That’s my take on it. That’s how I see it. I think that covers my thinking pretty thoroughly so I won’t keep pounding on it since I’m sure I’ve bored everyone silly by now.
As for what Johanna coulda, shoulda, woulda done - that milk is spilt. The teachable moment has passed. What matters now is what she does next. I hope she does report the guy regardless of what the other woman does.
Well, I spoke with the other woman and she agreed we’d report this together. I called the supervisor and left her a voicemail saying that I needed to talk with her about last week.
What is the best way for me to proceed at this point? Should I notify my supervisor over the phone, or via e-mail, or through the internal messaging system? Is it better to have it in writing?
I would suggest the best possible option is for the two of you to walk in together and make a joint report, or two reports at the same time. That might save considerable time, if you are asked questions that she might answer best and vice versa.
I spoke with my immediate supervisor just now and told her everything. She was very supportive and agreed that I did the right thing by reporting it, and she is going to notify her supervisor.
I’d suggest that you make notes of the conversation right now - while it’s fresh in your mind - including the date and time. Just so you have a record.
I think a lot of women are unsure up until a certain moment and are reluctant to do anything until that moment arrives. For some, that certainity arrives while the incident is going on, for others it is well afterwards. The appropriate response depends on the circumstances.
One evening, I was riding the metro home and a guy sat next to me. We were in the rear of the car, sitting in one of those seats that has a wall of glass between it and the seat in front of it (so it was kind of shielded from view). I was wearing shorts and a T-shirt.
The guy did the same thing being described in this thread: his hand “accidentally” kept finding a way to press against my thigh. And initially I didn’t say anything. Why? Because I assumed it was accidental and didn’t want to make a fuss over something imagined. So I shifted over and positioned myself in a way to stop the unwanted contact. When the contact returned, I did the same thing: moved my leg over even farther so his hand wouldn’t touch it. I gave the man the benefit of the doubt.
And then he made his move: he laid his hand squarely on my thigh and squeezed. That was when the certainty dawned and I told him to quit. Fortunately, the train made a stop right then and he decided to make a speedy exit. Coward.
It’s easy to say that I should have politely told the man to stop when the second instance of contact occured, but understand that it is hard to do that in practice because it goes against the grain of normal social interactions. How often does anyone of us tell strangers to stop behaviors that we find annoying? Most people just grin and bear it until the situation that brings you in proximity to the human nuisance is over, or until that nuisance crosses the threshold into enemy action.
If someone on a train is playing their music loudly, most people (men or women) will not say anything out of fear of offending that person and causing an ugly scene. Going to a restaurant, we’ve all had that experience of sitting next to some rambunctious kids, but how often do we ask tell the parents to do something? A lot of times, to get around the discomforts associated with directly calling someone out on their bad behavior, we report things to management. We ask to be moved to another table or we tell the train conductor to enforce the anti-noise policies. Johanna and others are hardly alone in this tack. Men and women clam up in these situations.
In a perfect world where everyone had gonads the size of watermelons, we’d always speak up when harmed. But sometimes we don’t because we are human.
Good for you. I’m very happy to hear that your supervisor was supportive.
I work for the feds. I don’t work directly in EO in my current position (having done so in the past), but I do work quite regularly with EO folks all the way up to Washington, DC.
[ul]
[li]Document everything! That includes everything you observed or participated in during training. Document all of your conversations with your co-worker. Document your conversation with your supervisor. No matter how difficult, document everything. Now.[/li]
[li]From this point on, every instance where this incident is brought up, no matter how trivial, must be documented, even if you are the only one who will ever be aware of it. No matter how difficult, document everything. Now.[/li]
[li]One exception. Do not bring up this message board and this thread with anyone at work. Ever. Period.[/li][/ul]
I have done that, sent myself an e-mail with the April 13 timestamp on it, recording all the details of the incidents and conversations, and the dates and times of each.
some guy tried to rub up against me
in a crowded subway car
some guy tried to feed me some stupid line
in some stupid bar
i see the same shit everyday
the landscape looks so bleak…
some chick says
thank you for saying all the things i never do
i say
the thanks i get is to take all the shit for you
it’s nice that you listen
it’d be nicer if you joined in
as long as you play their game girl
you’re never going to win
–Ani DiFranco, “Face Up and Sing”
She doesn’t have that choice.
Who and what are you referring to?
I think you should solicit a wide range of input, announce your firm decision of how you intend to act, and then when the situation arises do something entirely different! 