Those of us guys who hitch-hiked around in the mid to late 20th century know exactly how it feels to have a man make a move. We also learned (except, I guess, for those of us who were interested) how to stop that move. You cannot convince me that women cannot do the same.
Well, I was, once - rising 13 on a bus station in Bath, although it wasn’t inappropriate touching, it was a grown man offering me money to let him jerk me off, so bad luck on trying to shame me into silence that way.
And ISTR that Johanna has had to deal with far worse in her life than a creepy old guy (sorry, sexual predator) actually daring to touch her near her OMGbreast! or make accidental-seeming bag-to-ass contact so this should have been pretty small beer, along of all the boasting about how she would handle the situation ahead of time.
But hey, it’s resulted in lots of men being horrible to her and lots of women gathering around and clucking in a suitably sisterly fashion, so it hasn’t gone entirely for nothing. Far better than having to post
which would have been much less satisfying all round.
You are disturbed to find these comments falling out along gender lines? Haen’t you both been saying women haven’t been trained to be assertive, and so they are less likely to be able to speak up in their own defense then men? Why would it surprise you that men are saying you should have spoken up moreso than women are?
And to answer Lamia’s question – no, I don’t think it is worth lodging a complaint with HR at this point. I do believe that you are within your rights to do so – I certainly don’t dispute that. I think if you had told him he was crossing your boundaries and he continued in spite of that, you would have had ample justification to do so. You would even had ample justification to cause a public scene and tell him loudly and publicly to stop.
One thing that keeps coming to my mind is the old saying, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
If it makes me unsympathetic to the female situation, so be it. But I just can’t get my mind around, “Touch me 4 separate times - after I anticipate you are going to do it and after I have firmly made up my mind how I will respond and discussed it with others in person and on-line - shame on you.” :rolleyes:
Emphasis mine. So it was something you learned to do, not something that came to you instinctively at just the right moment the first time such a thing ever happened to you? Interesting. And was your response also one that would have been appropriate for a professional setting?
When I was only about 15 a friend’s boyfriend groped me, and I did not suffer any great internal struggle – I slapped him upside the head and said I’d kill him if he ever touched me again*. I rather wish I’d done the same thing years later when something similar happened to me at work, but I doubt it would have gone well for me if I’d violently assaulted and threatened a coworker.
There were of course plenty of non-violent responses I could have made. If I could go back in time and do it again then I think the best thing for me to do would be to loudly say “What are you doing? GET OFF ME!” But that didn’t immediately spring to mind at the time. In the 30 seconds or so that I had to respond while it was actually happening then I was dealing with my impulse to scream and hit him, surprise that someone who’d always seemed friendly would suddenly assault me, concern that I was overreacting to an accident, and fear of making a scene and getting myself into trouble at work – at a job where I was already on thin ice. And so I did something that, even an hour before, I would have said that I would never do. I just stood there.
I don’t expect any sympathy from you over this, because you’ve already made it clear that you have none at all for anyone who fails to immediately react in the manner you think best. But I’m sure there will come a time in your life when you’ll be in some bad situation and you’ll hesitate or make a mistake in your reaction. I hope you’ll be cut exactly as much slack then as you’re willing to cut others. None.
*Good thing I’m not trying to convince you of that, then. I’m just saying that it’s easy to say what you’d do in a hypothetical situation, especially one you’re unlikely to ever actually be in (that’s the situation of being touched inappropriately at work for anyone who’s still confused), and a very different thing to actually do it. There are plenty of women who have said “GET OFF ME!”, and I hope that if I’m ever in such a situation again then that’s what I’ll do…but having been there I know that coming up with the right response on the spot isn’t always as straightforward as you might think.
*I wish that was the end of that story, but it isn’t. My friend believed her boyfriend over me, and the two of them told everyone we knew behind my back that I was a psycho lying bitch. That’s another reason why women may hesitate to speak up or defend themselves – there’s a very real possibility that they’ll be accused of making the whole thing up. It certainly didn’t take long in this thread for people to start suggesting that the other woman was either overreacting or outright lying.
I feel like I need to add a disclaimer or something, so:
Female, licensed counselor, trained and personally experienced in sexual abuse (including harassment), and instructor on Sexual Harassment in the Workplace.
Now…
I think that what some of the other posters are getting hung up on is the shift between Strong, Assertive, Stand-Up-For-Coworker Johanna, who did not hesitate to put herself between the younger woman and older pervert precisely because she felt that she would be more able to address the situation if it happened again (and, minimally, because she felt she would be outside the target harassment demographic), and the Non-Assertive, Confused, Shrinking Violet Johanna, who now doesn’t know if a report should be made about the guy or not.
Johanna KNEW going in that the guy was a potential creep. She KNEW that he was being careful to be subtle- the description from her female coworker pointed to that, as did the fact that neither Johanna nor anyone else noticed anything out of the ordinary despite the fact that the alleged contact was well beyond a barely-there brush of the arm (seriously? touching someone’s HAIR?). She knew this before purposely sitting next to the guy. What the other posters can’t understand is simply this:
If you knew that the guy was being extra-careful to be subtle, you knew his modus opporendi, you had already been turning the situation over and over in your head for a few days beforehand, and you had input from lots of other people about covert and overt ways of dealing with the situation- including a plan to talk to the instructor- why did the thought even cross your mind that his behavior was accidental? When that voice even tried to speak up, it should have immediately been quashed by the booming logical voice yelling “HE DOES IT THAT WAY ON PURPOSE. ATTACK!” Even if the little voice got the better of you once, maybe even twice, it’s SO DIFFICULT to understand why- in the course of eight hours- it won four times.
This was not an out-of-the-blue incident, where she was completely unprepared. Certainly it didn’t unfold exactly how she anticipated it to, but I can absolutely see why some of the posters, when comparing the two Johannas, are going 
. Even I went when I read how it unfolded. Someone touching your side near your breast? I can’t even figure out how to contort my arm into a position where I could manage that, let alone make it look accidental enough that I could pull it off twice. I don’t see anyone here saying that she’s wrong for not acting, or that she’s wrong in thinking that the guy harassed her. I don’t even see anyone outright saying “Absolutely do not file a report”- just suggesting that she think about how HR might respond, which is actually a good idea given that even with preparation and a plan in place, she struggles with assertiveness, and if HR asks any pointed questions she might back down.
I don’t think the mentality of “you just don’t get it because it never happened to you” is helpful or accurate here… partially because it only serves to promote the idea that there’s a natural gender gap on experiences of this nature (men get harassed too, and it’s just as confusing and upsetting, and by implying that they don’t it just forces the victims to not want to come forward), but also because prior to it actually happening, everyone was giving her advice and support on how to handle the situation. It’s only when things took a turn for the somewhat odd that people started raising questions, and I think that the questions are fair. I myself wondered if Johanna’s background impacted her ability to step forward when she needed to, despite her intentions; why jump on Frank for asking what is a genuine question?
Now, before anyone gets all ‘don’t blame the victim!’ on me, I am NOT saying that Johanna got what she deserved/was asking for. I am not saying that a woman has to be careful how she interacts/dresses/whatever to keep from ‘asking’ to be violated. I hate that she experienced this, and is now struggling with all the ‘what ifs’ that come with it. But I am also someone who can’t help thinking that if you read about how the police are struggling with a sharp increase in muggings of brunettes with blond highlights on the other side of town between the hours of 10 and 2, and you decide that you’re going to not only visit that side of town (where normally you wouldn’t go) at 11, but first you’re going to put on your nicest jewelry and fur coat, stop by the bank to cash out your savings account, swing by the salon to have your hair dyed brunette with blond highlights, and stand on the corner talking loudly on your iPhone about how much money you have in your left front pocket, then do you REALLY have the right to be surprised when someone comes up and robs you?
NO. This is my issue right here. No way in HELL should the woman or man–the victim-- of this type of harassment EVER have to take on the responsibility in this manner. You are NOT “particular” about your space–he is fucking invading and breaking through customary/societal behavior barriers. Do not ever apologize in this way. Do not deprecate. He’s in YOUR space, touching your body. (and I hope you all note that I can be just as strong and vehement here, like Johanna–I cannot guarantee I’ll open a can of whoop-ass on anyone who does this in RL. I wish I could).
IF this guy were from another culture, allowances could (and should) be made–to a point.
I think that both of these women SHOULD have said something at the time this crap happened to them, but I completely understand why they did not and prefer for HR to handle it. I hope they do report him.
Them confronting the creep stops him from preying on them, it won’t stop him. A word from HR may give him pause, but it also puts him on HR’s radar for future complaints. THAT is what truly needs to happen here–because we all know he is not going to stop. He’s gotten this far in life doing this and old “habits” are hard to break. One of the reasons this shit doesn’t stop is because it exists in a gray area–once it’s done to you, you truly sit and wonder, “did he just do that?” etc and the moment is lost to say anything. The man counts on that happening. For all I know, there are women who do this as well, but we are talking about men acting inappropriately in a business environment toward women here.
BoyoJim-I wasn’t talking about that particular breakdown(there are several present). I was referring to how this thread seems to be men either dismissive and/or skeptical about the incident as a whole, plus being very critical of the women’s response vs the women understanding how this kind of thing plays out.
I’ve been admitting up front that this gap between intentions and actions is a problem in me I discovered when I was put to the test. And that by learning from my mistake I’ll be better prepared next time, if there is a next time. I realize some see this as an opportunity to jump all over me, but I think it’s better to be up front and honest about what really goes through a woman’s mind in such a real-life situation. Because this happens in real life all the time. How will I correct my mistakes if I don’t analyze what went wrong?
This is incorrect. I’ve stated above that I’m totally going to report the creep. Tomorrow when my colleague gets back from her trip I’m going to call her and ask her to join me in reporting him so we can back each other up. I hope that when she learns this also happened to me and I’m reporting him, she’ll overcome her reluctance to speak up. Together we will be far stronger than individually.
Maybe I skimmed over an important post, but I don’t think Johanna has expressed any confusion as to whether she should make a report. In the post where she told us what happened (#112) she used the heading “definitely time to report the creep now” and I haven’t seen that she’s changed her mind about it. Although if she is feeling doubts now I would hardly blame her, seeing as how there have been people here telling her she shouldn’t report it or that she won’t be taken seriously if she does.
I hope for her sake that she does at least speak to a superior about this informally, because I think that if she doesn’t she’ll beat herself up about it later. Maybe nothing will be done, but if she says nothing then it’s a sure thing that nothing will be done. I think she’ll feel better about herself knowing that, although she didn’t speak up in the moment, she did what she could afterward.
*I guess you and I are reading things rather differently then, because it looks to me like several posters are saying either that she was wrong not to have spoken up immediately (and indeed that anyone who has ever failed to speak up immediately was inexcusably wrong) or that what happened was too minor to be worth getting upset about.
I can understand that people would wonder why Johanna didn’t do what she’d said she’d do if the man touched her, but the responses she’s received go far beyond confusion, curiosity, or even disappointment. She’s even been accused of either inventing the whole thing or exaggerating it to make people feel sorry for her.
*I don’t think Johanna seems especially surprised about what happened. Does your hypothetical mugging victim have no right to be angry or upset about being mugged even though she might reasonably have foreseen that this would happen?
Emphasis mine. Assumes facts not in evidence.
I’m very glad that you decided to report him. I hope that the young woman will report him as well. He is bound to think that he’s gotten away with it again if he doesn’t get a message from HR. Sure, it would have been better if you had managed to confront him at the moment, but now you know how you tend to react when it happens, and you can better prepare yourself in case it happens again.
By the hostility I’ve sensed toward Johanna. Yes, she said she’d object loudly if it happened to her. Then, when it happened, she reacted instead with doubt and confusion.
In other words, she behaved like a typical human being. Who among us hasn’t promised ourselves we’d act a certain way in a certain situation and then not done so? I see an anger at Johanna that is not justified.
I can’t believe I’m seeing allegations that she made the whole thing up.
Agreed, eleanor, but this would certainly work as a technique for Johanna who a)avoids confrontation and b) isn’t sure if she’s perceiving the situation correctly. It’s trial balloon, and it can get her point across in a way that she is comfortable with.
Now, would you or I respond so politely? Oh, hell no. But I know I give off “ball buster” in my real life. I bet you do, too. This creep-o isn’t even gonna try this shit on us.
And remember, Miss Manners says it’s perfectly ok to be “polite” along with an icy stare. If a more polite sounding response will get Johanna over the hump of her fear, allow her to keep her sense of self as a polite person, and get creeps to leave her alone, then by all means she has a “problem” with her personal space and says please. Not all women are going to use the same words and attitude. It has to work for them, but it also has to get the message across: You will not find a patsy here. Try it again and there will be consequences.
This is the second time this has been brought up, and I hafta tell ya, I don’t get it. My response is the same as when Johanna mentioned it.
So??? And??? There’s nothing pre-emptory about speaking up for yourself that means you can’t go to higher ups later. We all get it, the creep plays on weakness. Take that power away from him. STOP being weak. Any person in their right mind is not going to have a problem with anyone, man or woman, who says, “I don’t like what you’re doing right now, and I need you to stop.”
I’m not sure if I posted this before (I’ve written so many things and back spaced over all of them… ), but if someone was continually, repeatedly stepping on your foot, you’d tell 'em to stop. Why are we ok with dealing with some forms of touch and not others? Tell. Him. To. Stop.
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Gfactor
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I am not mad at Johanna. I am confused. Okay, reality was different than all the mental preparation.
My point was to try to explain why and how a direct response to the guy is totally appropriate even if his behavior were legitimate or accidental. Just like niblet_head said, if he were repeatedly stepping on your foot you would have no problem telling him to stop. Why do you have a problem telling him to stop repeatedly brushing your arm, fingering your hair, leaning up against you?
Anecdote time, from the other side. Back when I was in college, I was working in an office job. One day an older male employee got me alone and asked me if I was aware I was getting too close to some of the women and making them uncomfortable. I was not. I was happy he let me know so I could try to behave differently, but I sure would have appreciated if someone had said something at the time so that I could know exactly what it was I was doing that I needed to change, instead of having to guess. Now I’m certainly glad they didn’t go to HR, and that they felt comfortable enough with their office relationships to talk to the other man and let him have a word with me. If HR had come to me, my response would have been the same, but having that in my record might have been awkward. Maybe it wouldn’t have gone anywhere, because it was so vague, and because I was unaware, so I wasn’t trying to be creepy. But when I wanted to get hired full time and that is in the personnel jacket, that might be an issue.
My point is not to make you refrain from reporting it. If it had just been a couple of accidental brushes with a bag, I might suggest letting it go, but with the repeated touching in other ways I think contacting HR is important. I hope both of you do. But my point of telling my anecdote is that if you are unsure if it is accidental or if he means it or if it is innocuous, having a polite word to inform him you don’t appreciate it is better for everyone. You feel better because you told him to stop, and he feels better because he can change the behavior and not cause trouble or make you uncomfortable. Whereas if he is being a creep, telling him to stop, even politely, will more than likely tell him that he better stop because he will get in trouble if he doesn’t.
Again, depending on the level of contact and the amount of discomfort it causes you leads to whether it would in the future merit contacting HR. If he fondled your breast, then there would be no problem loudly telling him to keep his hands off if he wants to keep them attached, and then contacting HR. If his bag accidentally bumped you on the leg a couple times and you alerted him to the condition and he stopped, maybe not.
It doesn’t matter the situation. It doesn’t matter what the behavior is. If it is making you uncomfortable, it is making you uncomfortable. You are completely justified saying something directly to him at the time, even if you word it politely. Make the point it isn’t acceptable. Say it’s accidentally bumping the leg with a bag. How about a polite, “Oh, watch out, I don’t want to kick your bag.” Or “Careful, I bruise easily.” Or “Oops, I seem to be bumping your bag, could you move over and give us both a little more room?” See, nothing hostile, but if he does not comply, he is being a jerk.
I like Irishman’s comments and I think it would be good if women* took it to heart. Humans are very tactile animals, and touch is one way that we communicate, emphasise a point, make friends and do whatever. This is never going to change.
I would also dare to suggest that there is a bit of a gender divide here. Women seem to believe that men are always thinking about sex, and any touch anywhere near “play zones” is neccessarily sexual. Well I can’t speak for all men, only for myself - touching a ladies should, or leg, or god forbid the small of her back is not in any way sexual - the more woman make this about sex the more I get confused.
This tends to mean that totally innocent touches from guys are harrassment, which just feeds back into the meme, if women would just say something to the guy at the time, no body I know would take offense, problem would be solved and guys would learn to behave better.
At the same time ladies would learn that not all guys are lechers out to get their jollies.
I also have a LOT of trouble understanding the supposed thought processes of this particular lecher. You mean he actually enjoys touching a woman “near” her breast, or brushing his elbow against her’s? Or, god forbid, knocking his bag against her but? Why? What part of that can give him any reward? It seems to me that any sort of risk / benefit analysis is not there. Does he get off on trying to make the woman feel powerless? Or that fleeting touch?
This is not to in anyway call into doubt the feelings and perceptions posted here - it’s just that I don’t get it. Are guys really that “weird” or cruel that they genuinely get their jollies this way? (at least for overt harrassment of the type of groping etc I can see what the guy might get out of it, even if it’s not appealing for me). If you get off on robbing power from others, wouldn’t it be equally as good to make a negative comment about perfume or looks or something?
- In general, not any particular women - and not all ladies.
I should damn well hope no warning was issued, what with making it perfectly clear what I was and was not attributing to Johanna.
(Awake at an unconscionable hour with indigestion, so if the above comes off as liverish, that’s almost the literal truth right this minute.)
Also, what the previous two dudes just said.
It’s funny that you should say that, because pretty regularly on the SDMB we have men talking about how they have much greater sex drives than women (there’s a current GD on that topic), how often they think about sex, how a man would never pass up the chance to have sex, how easy it must be for women to get laid whenever they like because men always want to have sex, etc.
Given how often some (not all, of course) men say that men are always thinking about sex, it should be little wonder that some (not all) women believe it.
Just assume that you are not allowed to touch any woman unless it’s medically necessary, or you need to get her attention. If you need to touch her to get her attention, don’t touch her anywhere near the play zones. Is that so complicated? I don’t think so. It’s not that we think that all men are lecherous pigs, it’s just that the men who touch us around or on the “play zones” are generally not innocent of sexual intentions. In a work environment, there’s absolutely no need to touch a woman’s leg, butt, or tit, unless it’s in a medical setting. There’s also absolutely no need to touch around those areas.