Creepy sexual harasser on a US government salary

[Boyo_Jim]

Here’s a distinction that anyone can understand.

He touches your arm slightly several times. You say nothing. He may or may not unsderstand that you do not appreciate his touch – even you, admittedly are not certain. You are reporting, at most, awkward interpersonal skills.

He touches your arm slightly. You say “Please respect my personal space. I don’t like being touched unless I invite it”. Or something like that. He stops. Incident is over. OR – He continues. Now you report, “He continued to touch me even after I specifically told him I did not want him to do so.” Now you are reporting specific sexual harassment.

There is a point, and IMO a necessity, of addressing the issue on the spot. That point is certainty, rather than ambiguity and speculation.

I would bet you that the second situation would bring down far more negativity on his head than the first.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Merneith

I doubt it says anything. There are no circumstances under which it might be appropriate for coworkers to lay hands on each other - therefore it’s not necessary for Johanna to have told him to keep his hands to himself. His behavior was inappropriate regardless of what she did or did not say to him. Handing the matter off to HR is the correct response. That’s what HR is for - dealing with problem employees. Let them earn their paychecks on this one.

Are you kidding? At my job, in a hospital, people touch my arm, and vice versa, daily. It is not always creepy and sexual. Actually, there are times – limited ones, I’ll grant you – when it’s perfectly appropriate to touch someone. It may be just a mater of drawing attention if the person’s focus is on something else. When I am focussing on a computer problem, and someone needs me, odds are I won’t even hear them if they speak my name. So they touch my shoulder. This isn’t a problem for me.

The OPs case isn’t like that of course, but it certainly isn’t the case that every touch that one employee gives another is by definition inappropriate.

[Lamia]

@Boyo_Jim

I would bet you that the second situation would bring down far more negativity on his head than the first.

Yeah, but so what? Is Johanna supposed to say “Oh dear, I missed the opportunity to get him into SERIOUS trouble, so I’d better just let the whole thing go”?

Now, if Johanna came in here after talking to a supervisor and complained that the man hadn’t been punished severely enough, it would be reasonable to point out that the water probably would have been hotter if the man had touched her after being asked to stop. But that isn’t the situation here at all.

Would it have looked better for Johanna if she’d told this guy to keep his hands to himself? Probably, but she didn’t, and she can’t change that now. She won’t have any further opportunity to confront the man herself even if she wanted to. It’s not too late for her to go to a superior about this, though. This happened yesterday, it isn’t ancient history.

While it is admittedly not written anywhere that you must be encouraging, I frankly think it’s disgusting that you are trying to persuade her that since she didn’t have the perfect response on the spot she then just has to keep quiet about it forever. If Johanna decides not to report this then that’s her choice, and I’d be in no position to condemn her for it because it’s a choice I once made in the past myself…but she does still have a choice. She can say something about this on Monday. Even if nothing comes of it, I think that she’ll feel better about herself if she speaks up. She doesn’t need to go in there screaming for blood, she can just say that this man acted in a way that made her feel uncomfortable and that she wanted to let someone higher up know about it.

[eleanorigby]

What disturbs me most here is that it’s the person touched who has to explain and defend their distaste and their actions. Why does the instigator have any right whatsoever to even start this stuff? This is a business setting, a teaching environment–there is NO reason for anyone to be touching anyone else, period. And yet the one who is feels threatened or uncomfortable is the one on trial here. What did the offender do, how many times, did you ask the offender to stop, maybe you misconstrued etc–none of these questions make confrontation or reporting easier or more likely. It’s true to life, for sure and should give an inkling as to why these things are not reported.
It is sounding more and more to me like “put up with it and shut up about it” aka “it’s all in your head”. Bullshit. I didn’t imagine that doctor offering me his Ferrari to sleep with him; I didn’t imagine the ass grope in the crowded elevator etc. It happens everywhere, every day. This woman did not misread this situation, nor did Lamia, hers. One poster comes here to discuss a very plausible scenario and she is not believed and then her actions are criticized. I find it deplorable that this seems to be falling out along gender lines–do you men here really have to be told that stroking a female coworker’s hair is inappropriate? That repeated touching of another female coworker is also inappropriate? Why the insistence that this isn’t happening and the blaming/criticism of the women’s handling of this?

Sometimes I hate the Pit because you could be gang raped* and someone would say it was your fault for it.

*I’m not comparing the two, for the more mentally challenged here–the culture of the Pit is that no complaint, no matter how valid or heinous, is to be treated with suspicion and derision. This thread is no different.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Lamia

Yeah, but so what? Is Johanna supposed to say “Oh dear, I missed the opportunity to get him into SERIOUS trouble, so I’d better just let the whole thing go”?

Now, if Johanna came in here after talking to a supervisor and complained that the man hadn’t been punished severely enough, it would be reasonable to point out that the water probably would have been hotter if the man had touched her after being asked to stop. But that isn’t the situation here at all.

Would it have looked better for Johanna if she’d told this guy to keep his hands to himself? Probably, but she didn’t, and she can’t change that now. She won’t have any further opportunity to confront the man herself even if she wanted to. It’s not too late for her to go to a superior about this, though. This happened yesterday, it isn’t ancient history.

While it is admittedly not written anywhere that you must be encouraging, I frankly think it’s disgusting that you are trying to persuade her that since she didn’t have the perfect response on the spot she then just has to keep quiet about it forever. If Johanna decides not to report this then that’s her choice, and I’d be in no position to condemn her for it because it’s a choice I once made in the past myself…but she does still have a choice. She can say something about this on Monday. Even if nothing comes of it, I think that she’ll feel better about herself if she speaks up. She doesn’t need to go in there screaming for blood, she can just say that this man acted in a way that made her feel uncomfortable and that she wanted to let someone higher up know about it.

So WHAT? It doesn’t matter if she reports some awkward arm touches, or she reports repeated inappropriate behavior after a request to stop it? So what is that one report is next to meaningless, and another report would probably resort in a far sterner warning and a note on a personnel record that would be referred to in case of future incidents.

I didn’t say she should just shut up. I did say that if she were going to say what YOU suggested, that it might even have been accidental, she should just shut up.

I also said that her complaint would have been much stronger if she had spoken up at the time. As she herself said she would do in post #9.

[Boyo_Jim]

@eleanorigby

What disturbs me most here is that it’s the person touched who has to explain and defend their distaste and their actions. Why does the instigator have any right whatsoever to even start this stuff? This is a business setting, a teaching environment–there is NO reason for anyone to be touching anyone else, period. And yet the one who is feels threatened or uncomfortable is the one on trial here. What did the offender do, how many times, did you ask the offender to stop, maybe you misconstrued etc–none of these questions make confrontation or reporting easier or more likely. It’s true to life, for sure and should give an inkling as to why these things are not reported.
It is sounding more and more to me like “put up with it and shut up about it” aka “it’s all in your head”. Bullshit. I didn’t imagine that doctor offering me his Ferrari to sleep with him; I didn’t imagine the ass grope in the crowded elevator etc. It happens everywhere, every day. This woman did not misread this situation, nor did Lamia, hers. One poster comes here to discuss a very plausible scenario and she is not believed and then her actions are criticized. I find it deplorable that this seems to be falling out along gender lines–do you men here really have to be told that stroking a female coworker’s hair is inappropriate? That repeated touching of another female coworker is also inappropriate? Why the insistence that this isn’t happening and the blaming/criticism of the women’s handling of this?

Sometimes I hate the Pit because you could be gang raped* and someone would say it was your fault for it.

*I’m not comparing the two, for the more mentally challenged here–the culture of the Pit is that no complaint, no matter how valid or heinous, is to be treated with suspicion and derision. This thread is no different.

I hope this post does not refer to me, as I never suggested that the OP or her co-worker were being in any way untruthful, or that they in any way needed to justify an aversion to being touched.

But, I believe they do need to STATE that they do not want to be one the receiving end of a touch, because it is a common interpersonal activity, and not automatically inappropriate in all cases. There are a lot of touchy-feely people in the world, and in my personal experience there have been more women than men in this category, and not everyone who does it deserves a complaint in their personnel file.

And it probably wasn’t soley the touch that the touched that raised their hackles, it was some larger sense of creepiness – manner of speech, choice of words, perhaps even something more subtle like some heavy cologne.

And actually, every one of these items might be the legitmate subject of a complaint about an employee, but I see it as a basic matter of fairness that someone who has given offense on a relatively minor item be informed and offered an opportunity to moderate their behavior before someone makes a complaint and launches some kind of personnel investigation.

[Malacandra]

@eleanorigby

Sometimes I hate the Pit because you could be gang raped* and someone would say it was your fault for it.

Drama quotient of this thread was too low? :rolleyes:

[Lamia]

@Boyo_Jim

So WHAT? It doesn’t matter if she reports some awkward arm touches, or she reports repeated inappropriate behavior after a request to stop it?

She doesn’t have that choice, unless you’re suggesting that she lie about what actually happened. Her choices are to either report being touched in a way that made her uncomfortable, or to not report it.

*So what is that one report is next to meaningless, and another report would probably resort in a far sterner warning and a note on a personnel record that would be referred to in case of future incidents.

*If the incident that actually occurred doesn’t merit a note then Johanna will just have to live with that. If she regrets her failure to react in the moment then it should be because she wishes she’d done a better job of standing up for herself, not because she missed her big opportunity to get the man into worse trouble. If I were her I wouldn’t be expecting anything more than an informal warning for the man now, and since they don’t normally work together she may never even know if that happens. I’m suggesting that she speak to a superior because I’m concerned that if she doesn’t she’ll regret it, not because I think the man is going to be severely punished.

Now, if the other woman is also willing to come forward then that might be a different story. Two women’s accounts would be better evidence than one’s that this man habitually behaves in an inappropriate manner. But even if the other woman refuses to make a complaint then I hope for her own sake that Johanna will.

Oh, I don’t know where you’re getting this “awkward arm touches” thing from. What Johanna said in #112 was that he touched her two times on her side UNDER her arm, next to her breast. He also touched her thigh and touched her butt with his bag, although without further details I’d be willing to grant that the last one may have genuinely been an accident.

*I didn’t say she should just shut up. I did say that if she were going to say what YOU suggested, that it might even have been accidental, she should just shut up.

*Do you think it would be better for her to go with YOUR dialogue from #133? That was what I was responding to. I think I’ve been a lot more helpful with my suggestions than you have been, since at least I’m talking about things she could still do on Monday rather than harping on what she should have done differently yesterday.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Lamia

She doesn’t have that choice, unless you’re suggesting that she lie about what actually happened. Her choices are to either report being touched in a way that made her uncomfortable, or to not report it…

I apologize for being unclear. I did not mean to suggest she lie about it. What I meant to say is, had she objected at the time (as she had said she would do upthread) and he continued to touch her, she would have been able to make a report that would likely have much more serious consequences for the guy.

And what I neglected to mention is that, had she objected on the spot and the guy actually stopped his objectionable behavior, she could have provided a more positive example to her co-worker who was afraid to speak up. And she might have decided that a report to a supervisor or HR was not necessary, since he responded reasonably and stopped the behavior.

Do you think it would be better for her to go with YOUR dialogue from #133? That was what I was responding to. I think I’ve been a lot more helpful with my suggestions than you have been, since at least I’m talking about things she could still do on Monday rather than harping on what she should have done differently yesterday.

This was certainly not a dialog I would suggest or recommend, it was a dialog (or interrogation, though that may be too strong a term) I fear she might suffer through given how the events played out.

And fine, you can give her advice what to do Monday about this. I am giving her advice on what to do if it happens again, with him or someone else.

[Frank]

@Lamia

… since at least I’m talking about things she could still do on Monday rather than harping on what she should have done differently yesterday.

Oh, for Pete’s sake. Johanna, in the OP and later posts, made no bones about how she would have reacted. She would speak up in her “lowest voice”. Johanna, when given the opportunity, did not react so. Given that Johanna was not socialized as a girl, since she was raised as a boy, I’m not going to buy any of her bullshit excuses.

Johanna should have spoken up, as should any man or woman who feels they are in that situation. I’m going to cut no slack to anyone, male or female, who in this day and age does not speak up to someone who they feel is inappropriately touching them. None.

[Suse]

I posted a thread earlier this year in which my daughter was the recipient of unwelcome touching at work. Her experience was similiar to Johanna’s in that she wasn’t sure if the contact was accidental or deliberate (at first, she wasn’t even sure if it had happened but her co-workers assured her that they had seen it), but multiple instances of this behavior by her manager convinced her that she should report it to the company.

If this had been a one-time shift with this particular manager, I’m sure that she wouldn’t have reported anything, probably even to me, because the physical contact was done in such a way that it could have been construed as accidental, and she probably would have taken it that way had it just been one shift. Although neither my daughter or I really knew anything about sexual harrassment before this happened, the research we did while discussing how to handle the problem showed us that ‘accidental’ touching is not uncommon, and is designed to leave the recipient unsure and thus protect the harrasser from being reported.

In Johanna’s case, touching on the side under the arm would be a stretch to be accidental even once, much less twice. At the same time, I can understand her uncertainty; it’s a fine thing to say what one would do in a given situation but much harder to actually take action.

[Carol_the_Impaler]

@Boyo_Jim

And what I neglected to mention is that, had she objected on the spot and the guy actually stopped his objectionable behavior, she could have provided a more positive example to her co-worker who was afraid to speak up. And she might have decided that a report to a supervisor or HR was not necessary, since he responded reasonably and stopped the behavior.

This is what I hoped for, also. At the very least, it’s possible a big 'ole situation and lots of consternation could have been avoided if one of these two women had said, “Excuse me, I’m particular about my space and I need you to to back up about six inches.” THEN if it turned into a problem or a confrontation it gets escalated, cuz creep-o had his chance cop to his error and change. If you’re worried if this is an accident or a trend, why not just find out??? Important learning opportunities were missed for everyone involved through inaction. Johanna could have learned that assertiveness is not aggression, and that standing up for her needs doesn’t equate to confrontation. She also wouldn’t have had to wonder for however long whether this was real or her misunderstanding. Co-worker could have learned how to deflect a creep. And creep could have learned that these two are on to his little game. Yes, I know it’s hard for some women, yes I know that the obstacles can seem hard to overcome. But the ONLY way you learn to live without fear is to act. You can hope one day you’ll wake up and not be afraid, or you can prove to yourself that you can handle it. Whatever itis.

[Merneith]

@Boyo_Jim

Are you kidding? At my job, in a hospital, people touch my arm, and vice versa, daily. It is not always creepy and sexual. Actually, there are times – limited ones, I’ll grant you – when it’s perfectly appropriate to touch someone. It may be just a mater of drawing attention if the person’s focus is on something else. When I am focussing on a computer problem, and someone needs me, odds are I won’t even hear them if they speak my name. So they touch my shoulder. This isn’t a problem for me.

The OPs case isn’t like that of course, but it certainly isn’t the case that every touch that one employee gives another is by definition inappropriate.

No, I wasn’t kidding and yes, I do believe that it’s inappropriate to touch your coworkers unnecessarily, even if you, Boyo Jim, get touched all the time in your workplace. I can see in a hospital, if you’re all working with a patient and you need to get in there and it’s an emergency, then yeah. But just to get someone’s attention? No. You don’t mind - and that’s cool, you’re boundaries are your business - but imo, you’d be well within your right to tell the touchers to knock it off.

I do also believe that you’d be within your right to ask HR to tell them to knock it off even if you haven’t said anything to them yourself. Again - handling coworker issues is what HR is for. So what if the touchee is just confused about what’s appropriate. It’s HR’s job to explain workplace appropriateness.

And in reply to your earlier post, again, I’m sure her employee handbook doesn’t cover the difference between good touches and bad touches. It’s not kindergarten. Adults should know to keep their hands to themselves.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Merneith

No, I wasn’t kidding and yes, I do believe that it’s inappropriate to touch your coworkers unnecessarily, even if you, Boyo Jim, get touched all the time in your workplace. I can see in a hospital, if you’re all working with a patient and you need to get in there and it’s an emergency, then yeah. But just to get someone’s attention? No. You don’t mind - and that’s cool, you’re boundaries are your business - but imo, you’d be well within your right to tell the touchers to knock it off.

I do also believe that you’d be within your right to ask HR to tell them to knock it off even if you haven’t said anything to them yourself. Again - handling coworker issues is what HR is for. So what if the touchee is just confused about what’s appropriate. It’s HR’s job to explain workplace appropriateness.
…

I can’t think of any other response to this than to say it’s total nonsense. It’s my responsibility to tell someone if some minor personal behavior is offensive to me. We are not talking about violent assaults or sexual groping, which everyone should understand is inappropriate without being told. I would have no problem with someone going to HR, or the police for that matter, should that occur.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Suse

I posted a thread earlier this year in which my daughter was the recipient of unwelcome touching at work. Her experience was similiar to Johanna’s in that she wasn’t sure if the contact was accidental or deliberate (at first, she wasn’t even sure if it had happened but her co-workers assured her that they had seen it), but multiple instances of this behavior by her manager convinced her that she should report it to the company.

If this had been a one-time shift with this particular manager, I’m sure that she wouldn’t have reported anything, probably even to me, because the physical contact was done in such a way that it could have been construed as accidental, and she probably would have taken it that way had it just been one shift. Although neither my daughter or I really knew anything about sexual harrassment before this happened, the research we did while discussing how to handle the problem showed us that ‘accidental’ touching is not uncommon, and is designed to leave the recipient unsure and thus protect the harrasser from being reported.

In Johanna’s case, touching on the side under the arm would be a stretch to be accidental even once, much less twice. At the same time, I can understand her uncertainty; it’s a fine thing to say what one would do in a given situation but much harder to actually take action.

I’m curious as to what course your daughter took. I would have to say that there is at least one significant difference etween the two situations, in that the inappropriate behavior is coming from a supervisor/manager with power over your daughter’s job and career. That is a very different dynamic.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Boyo_Jim

I can’t think of any other response to this than to say it’s total nonsense. It’s my responsibility to tell someone if some minor personal behavior is offensive to me. We are not talking about violent assaults or sexual groping, which everyone should understand is inappropriate without being told. I would have no problem with someone going to HR, or the police for that matter, should that occur.

I have given this response some additional thought and decided I am wrong, in at least one sense.

It is not for me to say that there are appropriate incidents of touching for anyone else’s situation. If you decide that for yourself and your situation, you are certainly entitled to, and I apologize for suggesting otherwise.

OTOH, you are not entitled to make the assumption that touching is known universally to be inappropriate in any and all workplace situations. It is incumbent on you to make your wishes known to your coworkers if you feel they are invading your space. And as a matter of basic fairness, as one human to another sharing the same work environment, it is also incumbent on you to make an attempt to resolve the situation before escalating the matter into a complaint that brings in outside parties and has potentially negative consequences for you both.

[Suse]

@Boyo_Jim

I’m curious as to what course your daughter took. I would have to say that there is at least one significant difference etween the two situations, in that the inappropriate behavior is coming from a supervisor/manager with power over your daughter’s job and career. That is a very different dynamic.

She told me about the behavior and I advised her to document and also to let him know that she didn’t appreciate being touched. When she did so, his inappropriate behavior did stop but she was then scheduled for fewer hours and other employees were told that she was not to be called in when someone was sick or they were extra busy; obviously, he was hoping she’d quit. At that point we decided together that it was time to report the manager’s behavior and subsequent retaliation against my daughter to the company. We ended up speaking to the company owners, and they obviously spoke to this manager, because he made a show out of not touching her (complete with hands in the air) but her scheduling improved back to the previous levels and she was once again listed among those who could be called in when staff was needed. We considered filing an EEOC complaint just in case he started up again once the heat was off as there are time limitations with which she would have to comply, but it’s been a couple of months and things are going well (and she will probably be leaving that job as school will be out soon and she will be back home for the summer) so I doubt we do.

[Johanna]

Frank, you in fact do not know jack shit about how I was raised or “socialized,” or how deep in the past my problems with assertiveness run. So you can just shut the fuck up about my personal history instead of making these arrogantly ignorant assumptions.

Actually, come to think of it, confronting assholes like you is starting to do wonders for my assertiveness. At least online. Being assertive in person is going to need more work.

My difficulty with assertiveness has existed as far back as my earliest memories; whether the origins are to be found in nature or nurture, I’ve always had this problem, and as this experience shows, I’m slowly, perhaps painfully, learning to get over it.

@eleanorigby

I find it deplorable that this seems to be falling out along gender lines–

I’ve been noticing that too. There is no shortage of women who have been through such situations and understand exactly the complexities of dealing with them. I mentioned this to one of my friends tonight, and she immediately related the times men had groped her at work, and how she had felt inhibited from speaking out about it because, as she put it, men band together, and women are accused of trying to get undue attention if they speak up, or accused of handling it wrongly if they don’t speak up; either way, women can’t win under such attitudes. She regrets having let it slide, but she was afraid of losing her job if she had stood up for her rights. As soon as I described what happened, she knew to call the guy what he was-- a pervert.

I regret not having spoken up immediately as I’d said I would, but

*Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow*
(T.S. Eliot)

It’s one thing to say what one would do in the abstract, and quite another thing to face situations in reality where the choices do not always turn out so simple and clearcut as we imagine them to be. Sexual predators like the guy I encountered know how to act subtly so as to plant doubt in women’s minds, how to play on their hesitation to rock the boat, especially given the possible consequences that are threatening to women. Guys, there is a chorus of women here all saying they’ve been through this experience and understand what it’s like; maybe if you listened for once, instead of being such knowitalls, you could get a clue.

do you men here really have to be told that stroking a female coworker’s hair is inappropriate? That repeated touching of another female coworker is also inappropriate? Why the insistence that this isn’t happening and the blaming/criticism of the women’s handling of this?

Word. Thank you. Thank you all–eleanorigby, Lamia, Lynn Bodoni, Merneith, niblet_head, Suse–thank you, your input is so helpful. I feel very much strengthened and able to deal with this, having talked it out with you.

[Frank]

@Johanna

Frank, you in fact do not know jack shit about how I was raised or “socialized,” or how deep in the past my problems with assertiveness run. So you can just shut the fuck up about my personal history instead of making these arrogantly ignorant assumptions.

Your personal history (as known on the SDMB) is entirely relevant to this subject.

Thank you all–eleanorigby, Lamia, Lynn Bodoni, Merneith, niblet_head, Suse–thank you, your input is so helpful. I feel very much strengthened and able to deal with this, having talked it out with you.

I’m glad that all the posts they made before you posted your personal reaction to the serial toucher made a difference in your response to him.

[Lamia]

@Boyo_Jim

I apologize for being unclear. I did not mean to suggest she lie about it. What I meant to say is, had she objected at the time (as she had said she would do upthread) and he continued to touch her, she would have been able to make a report that would likely have much more serious consequences for the guy.

You seem to be suffering from the mistaken idea that it is helpful to keep repeating this same counterfactual situation. It isn’t. Johanna knows she should have objected at the time. She knew before it even happened that this was what she should do, but when it actually happened she lost her nerve and the moment passed. That’s unfortunate, but it can’t be changed. Things are the way they are and that’s what she has to deal with, not your imaginary scenario where she acted otherwise and everything turned out perfectly.

*And fine, you can give her advice what to do Monday about this. I am giving her advice on what to do if it happens again, with him or someone else.

*No, you aren’t. You are just saying again and again that what she did on Friday was wrong and making a big deal about how no one is going to listen to her if she makes a complaint now. You dodged this question before, so I’m going to be as direct as I can here: Do you think she should report this incident or not? Because it sure looks like you’re trying to convince her not to.

@Frank

Oh, for Pete’s sake. Johanna, in the OP and later posts, made no bones about how she would have reacted. She would speak up in her “lowest voice”. Johanna, when given the opportunity, did not react so. Given that Johanna was not socialized as a girl, since she was raised as a boy, I’m not going to buy any of her bullshit excuses.

Once upon a time I could have given a very bold answer about what I’d do if a coworker touched me inappropriately, but when it actually happened then things weren’t as easy to deal with as I might have imagined. And although I believe Johanna is several years older than I am, given that she was raised as a boy she probably has less experience than I did then in dealing with unwanted advances from men.

*Johanna should have spoken up, as should any man or woman who feels they are in that situation. I’m going to cut no slack to anyone, male or female, who in this day and age does not speak up to someone who they feel is inappropriately touching them. None.

*It must be nice to always do the right thing and never hesitate or make a mistake. It must be even nicer to know that you’re unlikely to ever be in such a situation yourself.