Creepy sexual harasser on a US government salary

[Irishman]

Johanna said:

This is what the federal employee handbook we were issued says about sexual harassment. It doesn’t look like any of it applies to our situation, unless “Creating … an offensive working environment” covers us.

Let’s run a hypothetical, just for fun. Let’s assume that he is completely innocent of any wrong doing, that his behavior is within acceptable social norms. Now, this contact is making you uncomfortable, correct? Then it doesn’t matter, you are completely within your right to feel uncomfortable, and completely within your right to politely inform him that he is making you uncomfortable. “Please don’t do that.” It doesn’t matter if every other woman in the room would find it completely acceptable and not bat an eyelash, you do not. Tell him so.

Any normal polite member of society would take that request and honor it, regardless of whether they thought they were violating some social more. They would honor your wishes. Any continued contact on his part would, therefore, at a minimum indicate his being rude. His rude behavior, regardless of whether it is sexual harassment or not, would warrant you informing him more severely that his behavior is not appreciated. A loud comment “I have asked you to keep your hands off me!” would make that point. Again, you have not accused him of any sexual impropriety or intent, but you have directly addressed the content of his actions. If other people in the room hear that and think he is being a lech, well, that is their interpretation of his actions. But note that all you said is that he is touching you and you do not approve.

At that point any supervisor or HR person in the room would be required to become involved. Legally if they don’t they can put the company at risk of liability. At the very minimum, he will get told to respect your wishes, and probably be “suggested” he apologize and that he should keep extra distance from you. Also, anyone who witnessed it will start forming their own opinions, without you spreading rumors. If they spread rumors, well, you can’t stop that.

Furthermore, it will be noted in his record so that if anyone else has similar claims against him, a pattern will be discernable. Again, even if it didn’t merit “sexual harassment” on its own merits, it is harassment, and if he has a pattern of “accidentally” touching women, that will get noticed and disciplined.

But like I said, yes, it does meet the bounds of sexual harassment.

[Johanna]

Yesterday was the last day I was going to be working around him, I probably will never see him again, unless we get called back for meetings all at the same time. So I missed my chance to say anything directly. If I had, it would have given me immediate personal satisfaction (and this would be over with for me personally now anyway), but it wouldn’t have done anything to address the long-term problem of this guy’s behavior, since he is likely to go on doing it to women wherever else he works. That’s why I need to report him up the chain of command until he gets stopped.

It’s one thing to give advice to someone else what to do in this situation, and another thing to have it actually happening to you, especially when they’re using a subtle m.o. causing doubt at first whether it’s deliberate, and you have to make an immediate decision whether to speak up. It was only upon reflection I realized that he’d been doing all this deliberately. I’ve never been the assertive type and have always tended to avoid confrontations. But even if I get paralyzed with indecision at the moment it happens, I can still recover my assertiveness to act when I think it over later.

[Dinsdale]

The guy sounds like a jerk - but your (in) action does not impress me either.

I understand that all manner of things are vastly different for men and women. But it is terribly difficult to imagine that someone who anticipated this exact situation, expressed strong opinions about it over the course of a couple of days, counselled a co-work about it - then just stood there without any reaction while they feel they were violated in public FOUR FRIGGIN TIMES!

I personally believe there are extremely strong elements of personal choice in the vast majority of our actions, and I believe there are very few instances in which people are truly “paralyzed” into inaction. So I wonder what motivations contributed to your handling this as you have?

[Merneith]

You may have missed your chance to say something to him in context. But you and the other women are still on solid ground if you go to your supervisor. Go yourself, even if the other lady doesn’t want to. It sounds like Handsy is soon going to have quite a track record if he can do all this in the space of one week.

[Enderw24]

Yeah, I’m a bit confused about the turn of events here myself.
Let’s assume two scenarios on opposite ends of the spectrum:

1. This guy is a grade A asshole and his actions were malicious. Right now it’s your word against his. Let’s hope the other women in class come forward too because it’s going to be really difficult to prove much of anything.

2. This guy is completely clueless and this has all been one horrible misunderstanding. How in the world is he going to know to correct himself when no one will speak up and say “dude, personal boundaries!”

Basically, either way you look at it, speaking up to him at the time, even in a completely non-confrontational manner, would have been the first step in ensuring it stops happening.

[VinylTurnip]

Yeah, or maybe the whole thing never happened.

[Lamia]

@Dinsdale

I understand that all manner of things are vastly different for men and women. But it is terribly difficult to imagine that someone who anticipated this exact situation, expressed strong opinions about it over the course of a couple of days, counselled a co-work about it - then just stood there without any reaction while they feel they were violated in public FOUR FRIGGIN TIMES!

I personally believe there are extremely strong elements of personal choice in the vast majority of our actions, and I believe there are very few instances in which people are truly “paralyzed” into inaction. So I wonder what motivations contributed to your handling this as you have?

Earlier I alluded to an incident that happened to me at a former job where a coworker touched me in an inappropriate manner. If you had asked me the day before, or even the hour before, what I’d have done in such a situation I probably would have said I’d slap the guy silly. And as it was happening I was indeed thinking “I should slap this guy silly.” But I was also thinking “He can’t possibly realize what he’s doing. There’s no way he could think this was appropriate behavior*, so it must be some kind of misunderstanding like he’s fallen against me somehow and I’d hate to make trouble for him over nothing…”

In my particular case I was ALSO thinking “Making a scene now would surely get back to my boss, who’s obviously been looking for reasons to find fault with me recently, and there’d only be my word as evidence that this guy ever touched me at all.”

And so I just stood there without any reaction. I wish that I had not, but I did. I wish that other women wouldn’t make the same mistake I did, but I’m not surprised that some do.

It’s easy to play Monday morning quarterback, as Johanna herself probably realizes now. It’s a lot harder to know the best thing to do and actually do it at that moment…especially since it sounds like this guy is careful to act in a way that leaves room for doubt as to his intent. You don’t have to scroll back far in this thread to see a lot of concern about how accusations of sexual impropriety might destroy the career of an innocent man. So is it any wonder that some women hesitate to speak up when they aren’t absolutely, totally certain the guy is acting both deliberately and maliciously?

*In retrospect I should have suspected that he was a sleaze, but I’d been willing to put up with his occasional off-color remarks because he seemed harmless and I thought he was just trying to treat me like “one of the guys”.

[Johanna]

@Lamia

Earlier I alluded to an incident that happened to me at a former job where a coworker touched me in an inappropriate manner. If you had asked me the day before, or even the hour before, what I’d have done in such a situation I probably would have said I’d slap the guy silly. And as it was happening I was indeed thinking “I should slap this guy silly.” But I was also thinking “He can’t possibly realize what he’s doing. There’s no way he could think this was appropriate behavior*, so it must be some kind of misunderstanding like he’s fallen against me somehow and I’d hate to make trouble for him over nothing…”

This is indeed what was going through my mind at the time. I knew someone who had been in the same situation would understand. Thanks.

It’s easy to play Monday morning quarterback, as Johanna herself probably realizes now. It’s a lot harder to know the best thing to do and actually do it at that moment…especially since it sounds like this guy is careful to act in a way that leaves room for doubt as to his intent. You don’t have to scroll back far in this thread to see a lot of concern about how accusations of sexual impropriety might destroy the career of an innocent man. So is it any wonder that some women hesitate to speak up when they aren’t absolutely, totally certain the guy is acting both deliberately and maliciously?

That’s exactly how it was. He acted so friendly that it went against the grain to react negatively, and he was careful enough to create doubt in my mind about what was really happening. The significance of the whole pattern he established only became clear to me in retrospect.

And as for those who question my veracity, fuck you very much, fools.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Johanna

This is indeed what was going through my mind at the time. I knew someone who had been in the same situation would understand. Thanks.

That’s exactly how it was. He acted so friendly that it went against the grain to react negatively, and he was careful enough to create doubt in my mind about what was really happening. The significance of the whole pattern he established only became clear to me in retrospect.

And as for those who question my veracity, fuck you very much, fools.

I don’t question your veracity, I question your intelligence. WTF were you thinking when you let him get away with this shit? You were forwarned. You essentially sat between them to defend her, and I would hope, to present a mature response of how to respond properly.

[Lamia]

@Boyo_Jim

I don’t question your veracity, I question your intelligence. WTF were you thinking when you let him get away with this shit? You were forwarned. You essentially sat between them to defend her, and I would hope, to present a mature response of how to respond properly.

She can still do that by reporting him, and it sounds like that’s exactly what she’s planning to do.

[eleanorigby]

Respond properly? She is responding properly by contacting HR. Sure, it would have been great if she had called him out, but like she said, he would have stopped doing it to HER, but not stopped doing it completely. That’s what harassers/molesters/people who prey on other people do–they look for people who will collude in their own victimhood.
So, what we have here is posters (and I am disturbed that they are mostly men) who seem to be saying: Hey, why didn’t you should stand up for yourself and report this to HR? and when someone says they are reporting it, these same posters now say, Hey, you should have just dealt with this one on one!

And you all wonder why no one says anything? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.** Joanna** found out that it’s not so easy to confront someone like this. No shit. She’s following it up. And even now her account is pooh-poohed and the insinuation is made that women are just trying to do a man down with all this. Gee, I wonder why women don’t speak up more. Rock meet hard place.

And the creeps just keep on getting off on their shit. And women keep not being believed. :rolleyes:

[Carol_the_Impaler]

But, eleanor, the choices Johanna made when she knew better do not help. I don’t want Johanna to collude in her own victimhood not only for her sake, but for the sake of all the women this creep victimizes and intends to victimize in the future. She says she’s going to talk to HR and I hope she does. But I fear it’s more likely she’ll let it go in the end, and that only gives ammo to the doubters. I can hear them now, “Well, if it’s so bad, why didn’t you do anything?” We simply cannot allow ourselves to be cowed by our fear, because we contribute to women not being believed and creeps getting their jollies when we do that. Creeps are responsible for their behavior. We are responsible for standing up and saying no.

[Boyo_Jim]

IMO, she has made this situation worse, considerably, for both her and her other co-worker.

"So, let me get this straight. Your friend told you this creepy guy was touching her. And so you sat next to him why?

To protect her.

And what did you actually do to protect her.

Well, he touched me instead of her.

Did you tell him his touch was not welcome?

No.

Did your friend tell him his touch was not welcome?

No.

You said it yourself… He was so friendly that even you, who knew this from your friend, didn’t want to, and didn’t, respond negatively at the time. Well, how is he to know? We are not talking about a violent assault here. We are not even talking about overt lewd and lascivious conduct. We are talking about interpersonal communication of a nature that makes you incomfortable, but not uncomfortable enough to object to. "

If whoever you are interviewed by doesn’t say this, then the guy himself will. “I had no idea! We seemed to hit it off, I never would have done such a thing if she had objected.”

I agree this is a creepy guy, but I’m not sure bad “vibes” and arm touching while in close proximity are actionable offenses, unless and until the guy has been informed that touching is not acceptable.

I believe that you have given this guy another day’s worth of jollies, at your expense, and he will have no serious consequences whatsoever.

[Boyo_Jim]

Oh yes, perhaps you can answer the question on harassment based on your training. What does the trainer, or the handbook, say about informing a person that their attention is unwelcome?

[DrDeth]

@eleanorigby

Respond properly? She is responding properly by contacting HR.

So, what we have here is posters (and I am disturbed that they are mostly men) who seem to be saying: Hey, why didn’t you should stand up for yourself and report this to HR? and when someone says they are reporting it, these same posters now say, Hey, you should have just dealt with this one on one!

No, I said to report it, then & now. Speaking to him is an option (It’s the polite and first step option, but I accept when a person doesn’t want to take that option.). And she has not said she has contacted HR yet.

[Lamia]

Way to be encouraging, Boyo Jim. Do you think that exact line of thinking hasn’t already occurred to Johanna?

I would be disappointed but would understand if she didn’t report this because there IS a good chance she won’t be taken seriously. She has no evidence of anything and the guy’s behavior toward her wasn’t blatantly inappropriate, so it’s possible whoever she reports it to might feel this is not a big deal. But reporting it is still the right thing to do. There are other ways she could phrase things that would be totally honest and not make her look bad.

She could say that the other woman had complained to her about the man’s behavior but that she (Johanna) hadn’t seen him touch the other woman herself. Johanna then offered to sit next to the guy because the other woman was uncomfortable and because she figured that he’d be less likely to bother her anyway. The guy seemed friendly enough but did brush up against her several times, and although it seemed accidental when it was happening the more she thought about it the more suspicious it seemed. So she decided to report it in hopes that someone in authority would have a word with this guy and make it clear to him what kind of behavior was and was not appropriate in a professional setting.

Even if Johanna had a videotape showing what had happened then I very much doubt the guy would be fired over this. I would hope that her word would be enough to make someone in authority TALK to the guy about it, though. Even if the higher ups think it was all a misunderstanding then they should still see the value of having a word with the guy to make sure that, if only for his own protection, he knows to be more careful in his behavior.

[VinylTurnip]

It’s understandable; **Johanna **obviously didn’t want to upset the man’s seeing-eye dog.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Lamia

Way to be encouraging, Boyo Jim. Do you think that exact line of thinking hasn’t already occurred to Johanna?..

Excuse me? Where does it say that all my comments are supposed to be encouraging?

BTW, where did this idea go?

@Johanna

I would have spoken up if I’d personally observed it happening, but since I didn’t, I don’t see how I could take the initiative. I can’t make accusations based only on secondhand say-so. I will be watching out from now on though.

And by YOUR interpretation, which may not be the same as hers, she has nothing to report.

The guy seemed friendly enough but did brush up against her several times, and although it seemed accidental when it was happening the more she thought about it the more suspicious it seemed. So she decided to report it in hopes that someone in authority would have a word with this guy and make it clear to him what kind of behavior was and was not appropriate in a professional setting.

It might have been an accident, but since maybe it wasn’t I’m reporting him? And no, I didn’t say anything to him about it.

If she did a thread with that as the OP, I (and many others, no doubt) would be flaming her for escalating this incident with no evidence. What would be worthwhile, and actionable, is to report, “He kept touching me, even after I told him to stop.”

[Lamia]

@Boyo_Jim

And by YOUR interpretation, which may not be the same as hers, she has nothing to report.

He touched her in a manner that she considered inappropriate. That’s not “nothing”.

*It might have been an accident, but since maybe it wasn’t I’m reporting him? And no, I didn’t say anything to him about it.

*From what she’s said here she doesn’t think it was really an accident. The point is that when it was happening she wasn’t certain, and that’s why she didn’t say anything at the time. It might have been better if Johanna had said something to him when it happened, but her failure to speak up then and there doesn’t make it perfectly okay for him to have touched her in the first place.

I don’t work for the federal government, but looking at my own employee handbook it says that we are “encouraged” but not required to confront the person responsible for the “offensive conduct” because they may not realize that their behavior is unwelcome. It goes on to say that “If you are uncomfortable discussing the problem directly with the individual involved” or “if you simply want [employer] to be aware of the situation” then we are instructed to “report what you believe to be an offense to your immediate supervisor”. It sounds like Johanna won’t have any further opportunity to speak to the man directly since their training is over now (and trying to contact him privately would be a Very Bad Idea), but she can still talk to a supervisor and I would recommend that she do so.

*If she did a thread with that as the OP, I (and many others, no doubt) would be flaming her for escalating this incident with no evidence.

*Well, you’re a jerk then. Congratulations. What kind of “evidence” should she be expected to have in such a situation other than her own word? Should she have had herself dusted for fingerprints?

*What would be worthwhile, and actionable, is to report, “He kept touching me, even after I told him to stop.”

*Things that aren’t legally actionable can still be reported. It doesn’t even need to be a formal complaint. Johanna can go to whoever is in charge and explain what happened, and that person can (and should) then talk to the man about it. He’ll probably say it was an accident and will then be told to be more careful in the future. As I said above, even if Johanna had a videotape showing what had happened then it doesn’t sound like his behavior was extreme enough to get him fired or land him in jail. I don’t think she should expect anything more than an informal warning for the man, but that’s better than nothing.

If this guy is a creep, and it sounds like he is, then maybe he’ll at least hesitate the next time he wants to start stroking a coworker’s hair. In the unlikely event that his behavior was truly accidental, he’ll know to take more care. It wouldn’t be doing him any favors to let him continue carrying on this way in his new office.

[Merneith]

@Boyo_Jim

Oh yes, perhaps you can answer the question on harassment based on your training. What does the trainer, or the handbook, say about informing a person that their attention is unwelcome?

I doubt it says anything. There are no circumstances under which it might be appropriate for coworkers to lay hands on each other - therefore it’s not necessary for Johanna to have told him to keep his hands to himself. His behavior was inappropriate regardless of what she did or did not say to him. Handing the matter off to HR is the correct response. That’s what HR is for - dealing with problem employees. Let them earn their paychecks on this one.