I agree with Bpyo Jim/ The responses in this thread have been way over the top and kind towards her father. My father is a very, very close match. He never went to my high school or college graduation. He calls about 3 times a year for 2 - 5 minutes. He never sends anyone presents or cards. He didn’s attend my baby daughter’s funeral. That stuff doesn’t mean much to me but he saw my 5 year old daughter for 15 minutes for the 2nd time in her life at my brother’s wedding in November. He saw my 18 month old daughter for the first time during that 15 minutes. I cannot deal with that and I wished true and honest death for him at that moment.
He was 100% neglectful and absent when I was growing up. He wouldn’t attend any father/son types things even though he had 3 boys. I actually love my father believe it or not but it has to be on my terms. I basically wrote him off years ago. Whatever he gives, no matter how minuscule is considered a bonus to me and my family. OTOH, I will not be the ones making plans for his funeral when that comes up. He has severe personality and selfishness issues even though he isn’t truly mean that I refuse to chase or compensate for. If I got the call tonight that he died, I would still go to work tomorrow without much interruption.
Except that yours is driven by misguided wish to save the world, and mine driven out of a compulsion to amass money (and not spend it) it would seem we both share dads. Ah, and mom never left him, much as she should.
I will never come to terms with what my dad is and what he has done. I just try to ignore him, and the way he affects me as much as possible. It still hurts that he, living as he has spent the least time with my daughter, his only grandchild, than any of her other grandparents. Heck, less than many non-relatives.
I feel for you, Maastricht, but though I understand your being upset at your dad missing your wedding, in my experience most grandfathers aren’t around for the birth of a child. At this point, the main people involved will be you, the dad, and your son. I wish you the best.
By the way, I wish my dad hadn’t died when I was 5, even reading the few things your dad did for you made me miss having had mine around. Your dad sounds very egocentric, driven by his own passions.
BTW, I enjoyed looking at his website. In spite of his flaws, I think part of you can feel proud of him.
I hope you get to a point where you can be comfortable around each other, and that you don’t have expectations of each other. Things may work out better than you expect. I’ve known of people who were horrible parents but turned out to be considerate and loving grandparents. With men, that usually starts once the baby is a bit older. these days, relationships have changed between men and their own babies, thank goodness.
Ok, that was a bit of a ramble. Good luck and much happiness with the coming big event.
You have two choices- either accept him and love him for who he is, or cut off contact. He is who he is, and it’s not fair to him or you for you to harangue him about changing or punish him for not changing.
I wouldn’t think it’s important for your dad to be there for the birth of your child. It’s not really a dad thing, especially if the dad’s not one of those dads that do things like that. Enjoy your family- the one you are starting, and the one that you’ve had all along, as imperfect as they all are and will be. We are all someone else’s pain in the ass, but most of the time we are loved anyway, fortunately for us.
“Who cares about those stupid rituals?” You care about those stupid rituals. You. His daughter. Does anyone else’s opinion about the importance of those rituals matter? They shouldn’t.
Your father is very good at giving you what he thinks you should want, but completely unable to give you what you ask for and what you actually need.
Expect nothing from him. Set up whatever boundaries you need to, to keep yourself sane, and guard them zealously. And don’t worry about his opinion about any of it. He can enjoy the cold satisfaction of “knowing” he’s right, and blaming your opinions on hormones, or whatever, but he long ago forfeited the privilege of a mutually respectful relationship with his daughter. That’s on him, and him alone.
Obviously, you can’t turn off your emotions like a bathroom faucet, but do what you can and focus on the family you chose – your husband and your kid – as well as your friends.
It is. And it isn’t. One of the things about Dutch useage which continues to startle me now and again is this particular use of the conditional. It’s a little weird when your child says (translated) “I will buy a car if I get to be 21 years old”. But there it is.
And if you mention this, the Dutch guys calmly say their way is the better. Since you never know and all. :eek:
So it isn’t a glitch exactly, it’s how they say it. But unlike other differences, it appears that it’s also how they think of it.
For me anyway, it sort of was my hormones, but not in the way your father thinks. Just before Eldest was born a process began which continues to this very day, and it also involved changes in perspective regarding my near and dear.
I was raised to expect this, so I don’t know if it really is just a natural process or a self fulfilling prophecy. But here are my thoughts for whatever they my be worth.
You get two chances at a happy childhood, one as a child and one as a parent. The one which is coming up can go a long way towards healing the one you left behind. A shift in perspective on family relationships certainly is involved: your role as a child is about to change as you become a parent. One of the more interesting things which occurred for me during this process was that I gained a whole new perspective on my parents.
Your father is both more and less than his role as your parent; and also something else entirely. So are you, that’s the niggling thing in the back of your head which won’t quite articulate itself.
A person who cannot or will not (and in the end it’s the same thing) fit him or herself into the roles set out by others does indeed shortchange those around him or her. Those roles exist for good and ample reasons. On the other hand, his failure to do that gives us a person who is fully, annoyingly, himself and that has value also. But you are not he, and the ways in which you parent will be other than his. The ways your partner parents will be different also.
Truly, I wouldn’t worry about being stuck for very long; the process itself is likely to unstick you very soon, willy-nilly almost. This stage, according to the way I was brought up, closes in some ways only if you have the opportunity to help someone through his or her last illness and death.
<switching Dutch people from sane, reasonable and grounded in my brain to odd, eccentric and yes, maybe a bit arrogant as well>
Seriously, they think that their mis-translation and usage of an English word is better than the original language’s definition and designation of that word? What’s their take on gemutlich (sorry, no umlaut on this keyboard) or ennui? :eek: All I can say is that IF I ever make it back to Holland, I’ll be sure to have a talk with the Dutch about this.
(maybe they know something we don’t–like that kid may NOT make it to 21. Or whatever. I always thought the Dutch were fairly happy, optimistic people. Hmmmmm…)
Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with this. He’s not the one who doesn’t get it, in my opinion.
You Dad is what he is, and maybe now that you’re an adult it’s time for you to ‘get it’. He didn’t just become this guy overnight, he’s always been this guy by your own admission.
You effectively say, “I sucked it up when…yada, yada, yada.” When clearly, you were not okay with it then and still have resentment about it today. (Or you wouldn’t be recounting it now!)
Maybe it’s time for you to accept him for who he is, instead of choosing to be disappointed over and over again when he, yet again, proves to be exactly who he is.
He’s not a rapist or child molester, wife beater or KKK member. He’s just a guy who doesn’t fit the mold of typical fathers.
Imagine your Dad always slightly angry and resentful, disappointment ever just below the surface, year after year. And all because you didn’t become a third world saving inventing crusader! How long would it take till you grew weary of not being accepted for who you are? But instead eternally being judged as ‘not enough’ because you are still not what he thinks you ought to be.
It seems like your Dad accepts you unconditionally for who you are (even though it’s foreign to who he is). Wouldn’t it be nice if you could return the favour?
You’re 40 yrs old, maybe it’s time to resolve those Daddy issues. Maybe the first step is to recognize you’re the one who needs to work on themselves, not him.
I think she gets that he is a self-centered douchebag.
Relationships are a two-way street. If one person cannot put the slightest amount of effort into it, then the other has to decide if you want to have them in your life continuing to disappoint you.
What does it matter if someone is a “genuinely nice guy” if they are an asshole by their actions? It’s easy to be happy and pleasent all the time if you only do things that you feel like doing and ignore everything else.
Well, no. I mean, yes, sane, reasonable and grounded. And ok, yes, odd, eccentric and, well, maybe the arrogance thing is not entirely limited to my spouse. (where’s that snigger emoticon?). In fairness I can speak only for my experience in the south of Holland which is by no means the same as above the rivers. Or even Maastricht. Or, while we are at it, even Maastricht.
But they aren’t mis-translating or using an English word; they are using a Dutch one. Only I am forbidden to use furrin’ words on the Dope I gather, so I didn’t. The original usage in Dutch (translated to English) is to say: if I become 21. Or if my child is born, per the op. The usage in English is, as you say, when I get to be 21. When the child is born.
If you point this out, Dutch guys will go with the English usage when speaking English. Generally around here people don’t get much practice in speaking English and like to get it right.
But what I meant was, when this difference is pointed out (in either language) they think the English usage is, um, sort of silly. It is often asked if this is an American usage, since we have the reputation of preferring happy endings and circumlocutions to reality and a little good old fashioned directness.
Hugs to you, Maastricht, and congratulations on your pregnancy.
I think Marienee nailed it yet again! Beautifully put, “two chances at a happy childhood.”
I have a flaky Mom, similar in some ways to your father, Maastricht. Sometimes she’s there for me, at other times she’s not. Frequently she’s too sick to function.
I used to feel very angry at having been cheated, denied a “normal” relationship.
When I gave birth to my twins 4 years ago, a tremendous process started. I really began to see my Mother as just another flawed human being, struggling with the burdens and gifts of her own existence. I saw that her positive qualities had enriched my life. I realized the sacrifices she made, the hard work that she put in to raising me and my sister (even though a lot of it went awry).
And I realized that our children’s needs are always greater than our ability to fill them, no matter what.
“I think she gets that he is a self-centered douchebag.”
Really? Then why does she keep expecting him to be otherwise? And disappointed that her expectations are not shaping his behaviour? When was the last time you let someone else’s expectation shape your behaviour? Even when their expectation is totally at odds with who you really are and have always been?
He is what he is, and he’s obviously comfortable with it. Now it’s time for her to get over herself and accept that people are not who we want them to be, they are who they are.
When he’s dead and buried will be too late to see that instead of spending all her time focused on what he was not, how much better they could have both had it if only she could have put her energy into celebrating what all he was.
“But I want you to be like all the other Dad’s”, is grade school thinking, and very likely when she first developed this attitude. This is no attitude for an adult, I’m just saying it’s maybe time to stop putting it all on Dad and maybe recognize this is her issue to resolve. She doesn’t have to like it, or agree with it, but she does need to accept it and get right with it if she hopes to move forward.
I do respect that she’s trying to deal with her Daddy issues before her child is born. I think that is very wise indeed.
But he doesn’t. At least not the way I’m reading things, elbows. Maastricht’s father’s standards of accepting seem to be completely self-centered: If Maastricht is supporting him, or accepting his behavior, then all is well with her, and his relationship with her. If she is upset with his behavior, it’s not a real problem he may have caused, but simply hormones, or some other transient flaw within her.
That’s not my view of someone accepting other people the way they are. It’s pretty damned close to my view of a self-centered douchebag, to be completely honest.
elbows, I appreciate the differenent view you give here, as it allows me to formulate my own thoughts on the matter more clearly. My own thoughts about my dad are as mixed as the views presented upthread; what is so difficult, I now realize as I write this, is to choose a particular internally consistent line of feeling and acting* and sticking to it. *
In this particular case, even the wedding thing is as mixed as it could be. I didn’t expect my Dad to attend; in fact I didn’t even want to invite him, for a number of reasons, fear of disappointment being one of the the biggest reasons*). But although I let him think I was perfectly okay about his “Can’t come, plans are already made” attitude, I did resent it, in the smoldering, half-admitted way you described. Then, when HE said he would be able to make it, I thought it would be okay to expect him to come. And when he failed to make good on even that self-made expectation, I felt, well, to quote** OtakuLoki**, that he was a self-centered douchebag. Or flaky to the point of being retarded. Which he denies being.
That’s another thing; I doubt Dad is really happy with his life. He deeply feels the pressure of having not that much time left, and he resents not getting all the help support he feels he needs. I don’t know if he misses havign romantic relationships; he says he does, but if he has a girlfriend, he complains about how many useless things she made him do, like going sailing or to art exhibitions.
And yes, I feel I have to resolve my Dad issues before MaastrichtSon is born. (that’s a when, not if; **Marienee **is right that the two words are used interchangably by the Dutch). Not so I can play the victim, or to blame Dad and make him see what he did to me (Ha! I’d have better luck trying to soak a duck by ducking it underwater) but because I need to find out, firstly, what I can reasonably expect from the people around me, and even more importantly, because I need to get a new more realistic set of expectations as to what my son can and should expect from me. Which, as fessie said, will probably turn out to be unrealistic as well.
*) The other reason was fear of having to invite Mom as well as Dad. The divorce is 22 years ago and Mom *still *foams at the mouth at the sight of Dad. Anyway, I used Mom’s flakyness to my advantage. I told her that my fiance and I had gone and “made all the legal paperwork in order”, and signed the papers at the courthouse. She then matter-of-factly and cheerfully assumed that the paper signing ( I didn’t call it marriage) had already taken place, so she said: “Good on you” and sent me a gift of a 15 dollar bill to buy myself a bunch of flowers. Frankly, I was glad to get off the hook so easily.
The Mosquito Coast has already been mentioned, which I also thought of when I read the OP. I think Maastricht, you’d also find a lot in common with the family in The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver, which describes a father much like yours. This family does move to Africa, where he proceeds to misunderstand everything about the people there, bringing misery upon his family. Don’t know if you’d enjoy this to comiserate, or if it would make you feel worse!
But anyway.
I’m awfully sorry for your relationship with your father. I have a relationship in which I am permanently disappointed in the person, so I can comiserate with you as well. If you can’t bring yourself to cut all ties, then I advise to eliminate your expectations of him entirely. That’s what I’m trying to do, and not having much luck either.
This is completely unfair. Nobody is “choosing to be disappointed” here. She doesn’t “choose” to be hurt by her father’s actions/lack of actions just like I don’t “choose” to be upset and cry at other people’s weddings when I see the bride with her father. I try very hard to NOT let it get to me. At one point I thought I was over it, but then I went to another wedding and it happened again. If this was an issue of choice, everything would be great. Unfortunately, emotions are not rational things that can be moved around like LEGOs into whatever configuration suits you best.
My niece’s grandfather on the mother’s side, has seen her 3 times in the last 15 months which is her age. He lives less then 10 miles away. He saw the kid for the first time two months after the birth. The third time was in the hospital after a heart attack. The kid was not liking him, and he said “I suppose it’s because I never have anything to do with her.” The mother “Yep. I would say that’s about it.” My mother didn’t know if she should call to tell the mother her dad was in the hospital. I was like ya, she can decide what she’ll do. There are plenty of messed up relationships out there. I’m happy with being the niece’s favorite person and spending time with her. I got a big hug that lasted minutes when the parents wanted to take her home just two weeks ago.
Maybe you can approach it this way…assume your dad will never show up, even when he says he will. That way, you won’t be disappointed when he doesn’t and can be pleasantly surprised if he does.
It seems like you want to love your dad, but he doesn’t make it easy. I love my dad, but after our last vacation together I realized I will never subject my family to that again. Oh, we we love each other, he’s a great person, but we can’t share space in an RV for two weeks again.
So, you can accept the shortcomings and appreciate the good qualities. Unfortunately, it appears your dad has a whole lot more of the former than the latter. And that is a shame, but you know your son won’t have that particular bugaboo to work through in life.
Has your mom found out you did actually have a wedding and didn’t invite her? How does she feel about that?
I realize I’m not your mom, but as a mom with a daughter who’s dad flits in and out of her life, I would be really, really hurt that she chose to expend all this energy on trying to get him to come to her wedding and didn’t even tell me she was having one.
It’s one thing to not have a wedding and have your mother support that decision, it’s another to not even tell her your having a wedding ceremony and you don’t want her there because there is a slim possibility your damn near non-existant father might show up.
That might actually be something I would stop talking to her for awhile over.
