No, the stadiums don’t have higher capacities. Almost all the new stadia are mid-range in terms of seating capacity. And attendance is much higher even if you account for the four new teams; go ahead, add it up on a per-game basis.
I appreciate that TV ratings are down, but then, the options for viewing are up. The one clear-cut measurement of the sport’s popularity that cannot be explained away as a matter of opportunity, attendance, is up.
Sorry, but that’s observably false. You’re basic your claim here on what basically amounts to a run of luck the Yankees have had in postseason play.
If it’s a “ridiculously slim” chance for low-payroll teams - well, please explain the Marlins. Obviously, they have more than a ridiculously slim chance. The A’s certainly have a better than ridiculously slim chance, even if they’ve made some astoundingly dumb baserunning errors. Basing your conclusion on a handful of games and saying nobody has much of a chance is silly.
Explain to me, in logical terms, why Detroit could not win the World Series if they had any brains at all. Detroit has a big market. A new stadium. They have absolutely no excuse whatsoever.
Montreal, while they have a decent team now, will not be permitted to continue winning until they’re sold and moved. MLB won’t allow it.
Put these two together you have the whole story. They have ALWAYS been able to outspend their opponents, both i free agents and minor league aquisitions. They can afford to offer other teams anything to pry away their talent.
And free agents want to play there because they ALL want a ring, and in that cycle, being a Yankee is the best way to accomplish that goal.
Whether you spend a lot of money or a little, you have to do it intelligently. The last two years, three ‘poor’ teams have made the playoffs (out of 8 total playoff teams). Oakland and Minnesota made it both years, Anaheim won the Series last year, and the Marlins are in the series this year. So ‘poor’ teams are not only able to make the playoffs, they can win there. Baltimore and Los Angeles, just to pick two examples, used to have huge payrolls and still sucked. Texas has a big payroll (less than last year) and they’re awful. Ditto this year’s Mets.* Obviously having more money to spend makes it easier to win, but paying players a lot of money doesn’t guarantee they’ll produce and doesn’t guarantee that you’ll win. The Yankees also have a very well-run organization. A number of their stars (Soriano, Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettite) came out of their farm system.
The Yankees don’t just attract players with money, it’s that their organization has a history of success like no other dating back to Babe Ruth. They have a mystique, and as others have said, New York is the biggest stage in the country, so players want to see if they can succeed there. The Mets benefit from this as well. It gives New York another leg up.
The reason the Midwestern Cubs are loveable losers and the Mets aren’t isn’t just ‘East Coast snobbery.’ It’s that the Cubs have been losers for a long, LONG time. The Mets were a good team just a few years ago (they made the World Series in 2000), and won titles in '69, '73, and '86. The Cubs prior to this year hadn’t won a division title in a good while, they haven’t been to the World Series in almost 60 years, and prior to this year hadn’t won a playoff series since 1908. No other bad team in baseball can even approach that kind of futility- the Tigers were a powerhouse in the 80s, the Red Sox win most of the time, they just don’t go all the way, the Devil Rays haven’t been around long enough, etc.
Okay, for the record, Cricket sucks. It’s too damn genteel, and regardless of any minor similarities it may share with baseball, it just can’t compete in terms of spectacle and drama. Hitting a cricket ball into the crowd will earn you a polite round of applause and some appreciative murmurs from the commentators. Hitting a home run will get the crowd on its feet and roaring, and is a thing of beauty forever (unless you’re rooting for the defense).
Anyhoo, I think I’m a Red Sox fan because of the history of the team, and the fact that they seem to have a good shot each year. Pedro Martinez is brilliant, and I hope he stays healthy. Garciaparra seems to be their biggest hitter. It would be nice to see them bring in some Japanese talent, as the Mariners’ Ichiro Suzuki and the Yankees’ Matsui both seem to be doing well. All in all, they seem to be a team I can be proud of and realy get behind.
So, it looks like I’ll have to plan myself a holiday to Boston next year (do they really have fried clams at Fenway?). I’ll be taking a week at New York before the end of the year, just to see what the city’s really like (and to check out the opposition!) Can you visit Yankee stadium in the off-season, or is it closed? Don’t they have a museum or something there, too? I think i’ll visit ground zero as well and pay my respects, but I’m really looking forward to seeing the city, having a hot dog from a stand, eating at a deli, checking out some museums, the Empire State, etc. Let’s see how realistic all those movies were…
Finally, is there any place a baseball newbie like me can get better acquainted with the sport on-line? Most of the sites out there seem to be for long-term, hard-core fans, and it can be a little intimidating if you don’t know your stats. Is there any place where I can take it slow and avoid a flaming?
The three best sites for baseball are, IMO, Baseball Primer, Baseball Prospectus and ESPN’s baseball section. Just read everything. Most of the stats are pretty easy to figure out, but I still don’t understand what half the stats are at the Prospectus site. I still usually enjoy the columns, though.
One factor that works against the Yankees is that not every player can play in New York. There have been players that played like Mickey Mantle in other cities, then get traded to the Yankees and play like Mickey Mouse. Don Gullet comes to mind…Jim Spencer. I’m sure others can supply better examples. The Yankees can spend the money and bring in good players, but that is no guarantee those players won’t wilt in the spotlight.
Five years? You and I are operating on different time scales. I have’t paid any attention to NHL games since the mid 1960’s, going on 40 years now.
Hockey has always been a rough game and that’s not what I’m talking about. What I mean is those cases where gloves and sticks are thrown down and the whole game stops while two troglodytes dance around on the ice.
I do, now that I think on it, remember that I read that the NHL had become concerned about such action-stopping fights and was going to do something about it. Maybe that accounts for your perception of fewer of them.
The recent incident in the Yankee-Red Sox game is the same sort of thing. The gestured threats to throw at the batter’s head by the Red Sox pitcher were totally out of line and ruined the action of the game. He should have been tossed out of the game right then. If baseball allows such incidents without harsh penalties the game will lose much of its attraction for me. If I want to watch tag team I’ll go to professional “wriestling,” ugh.
Successful Athletes want a reward that they can show off for their hard work. Money’s nice, but a brainsurgeon can make money. He wants something to show he’s the best in baseball for that year. A World Series Ring does that. And, like them or not, The Yankees get the job done.
Sure, there have been long stretches without and no one can forget that one of the best players to Ever play the game, Don Mattingly, retired without ever having his own WS Ring. While I can’t say I listen in conversations between players and their agents, I’d be lying if I told you that I’d never heard of “Pulling a Mattingly” (Paying well, but ending up ringless). Players don’t want to ‘pull a Mattingly’, and if the Yankees are winning, and they have the talent, that will figure into job offers they consider.
Well I take exception to the fact that no one cares about the Mets and Rangers when they lose. I haven’t been spending my money on winners every year but I’ve been supporting my teams. Sure attendance is down at Shea when they lose but trust me Yankee fans are no different. The Mets were a bigger draw in NY in the 80’s than the Yankees. Hell in the 90’s Steinbrenner was threatening (although it was an empty threat) to move to Jersey if he didn’t get a new ball park because he wasn’t drawing enough at the gate at crappy run down Yankee Stadium in the decrepit Bronx (how George was making his pitch).
Oh and the number one reason for Bull popularity is Michael Jordan. People wanted to see him play. Same as Gretzky was to hockey in the 80’s.
Funny, the Hall of Fame Committee doesn’t think he is one of the greatest ever. If they did he’d been in the HOF by now. I’m not saying he was a bad player but “one of the best players to Ever play the game” is a stretch.
Replace Don Mattingly with Ernie Banks and I would agree.
In true Yankee fan-hating fashion, they also seem to be charging out the ass for it.
As for the Fenway food, I haven’t seen fried clams there (although, I’m sure you could find some, somewhere), but the clam chowder is spectacular, especially on a cool night in April or September. Really hits the spot. No day at Fenway would be complete, however, without a Fenway Frank. Mustard only, no ketchup.
Theer are a handful who spend a lot on international. The Yanks spend a lot, may well be the most, but other organizations, notably LA, spend an awful lot too.
**NYR407 **,
>1. They draft well. Helps also to have more resources nationally and worldwide than anyone.
They don’t. The internationals you don’t draft. You buy the Matsuis and Sorianos from Japan, the Contrerases and El Duques from Cuba. They aren’t drafted. Look at their lineup from yesterday: Soriano (free agent, Japan) Jeter (their system - but debuted in 1995), Giambi (free agent, Oakland), Williams (their system, debut 1991), Matsui (free agnet, Japan), Posada (drafted 1990, debut 1995) Garcia (traded - a journeyman with his 6th MLB team), Boone (traded for, Cincy system), Mussina (free agent, Baltimore)
9 guys, 2 from trades (Boone, Garcia), 3 drafted, all debuted 1995 or earlier, 4 free agents - in the big slots - leadoff, 3rd and 5th in lineup, starting pitcher. (Cleanup was a draftee)
P.S. Shoot Sather.
**Nerotik, **
False on stadium capacity. Parks are tending to be smaller, "more intimate retro-style". A couple of examples:
>The Jake’s greatest appeal might be its complete disassociation from Cleveland Stadium, the Indians’ uninviting, impersonal home for six decades. Jacobs Field (capacity 43,863) is everything the Stadium (74,483) was not
same source, Pittsburgh 3 Rivers first, then new PNC:
>Capacity: 47,972
>move into a 38,000-seat PNC Park in 2001.
Baltimore went from 54,000 to 49,000
(Sorry to change sources, SN didn’t have capacity in all articles)
Getting the 25,000 each night will get you 2 million, 37,500 3 million, and even the Cubs came close this year, and they only hold about 39,000.
** Rocking Chair **
I was half expecting this to happen this year, but maybe they are saving it for a WS Game 7. Sox up 4-3, bottom of the 9th, 1 out, bases loaded: Grounder up the middle, looks like an easy DP for Nomar, it hits the bag, goes over his head, 2 runs score. Babe Ruth laughs so hard he falls off his barstool in the Hereafter.
Marley23
Try the Phillies. 1 WS win. this is, what, the 99th? They had a stretch of 13 years (1933-1945) where they finished last 9 times, next to last the other 4, with 5 straight 100 loss years. You’ve got 2 in your history. Heck, the METS never had 5 in a row. Plus the whole 1964 deal, which had RED SOX fans thinking choke…
Question on Cubs fans - are they tremendously loyal, in a city that hasn’t had either team win a WS since 1917, or be IN it since 1959 (WS), or just crazy? Something about a day game at Wrigley, though.
Bibliovore, are you a Manchester United supporter? If so, then you’d be a fine Yankees fan. If not, then you know why not - there are few differences worth discussing between the two teams and their fans. They even have a joint marketing agreement.
Some other thoughts, randomly compiled from a quick skim of the thread:
The Yankees’ chronic success isn’t only due to money disparities. There seems to be a spirit of confidence bred of success that gets passed down through generations of players, and helps them come through tough spots in games. The Red Sox have a spirit of lack of confidence in big games, bred of chronic lack of success there (and pounded in by a large amount of fairly thoughtless, hopeless commentary among the local sports media). The Yankees’ confidence, and their opponents’ lack of it, have something to do with Mariano Rivera, too.
Red Sox home tickets are the scarcest and most expensive ones in the game. If you’re serious about seeing a game in Fenway, save those pence. But be prepared for a disappointment - it’s old, often dirty, with uncomfortable seats and poor sightlines for most of them, despite its small capacity.
Don’t be fooled by average attendance figures, as RickJay suggests. There are a few cornerstone franchises, the Red Sox and Yankees among them, that bring up the average, but there are many more that don’t. TV ratings are meaningful - fans have an opportunity not to go the games, not just an opportunity to change the channel, RJ. Those numbers are generally down, and worse, surveys of young sports fans’ favorite sports rarely have baseball ranked among the top ones.
Montreal was a real playoff contender for much of this season, until realizing that they would not be allowed to get that extra player or so that might put them over the top. The franchise is hopeless long-term, but not at the moment.
Don’t take Moneyball too seriously. There are many who know Beane who think he’s an egotist and won’t deal with him anymore. Oakland hasn’t actually won a single playoff series during Beane’s tenure, or he might have some credibility about how to do it.
The best sites to read, as a casual fan: espn.com, sportsillustrated.com, and the hometown newspapers of the teams you’re interested in (for the Red Sox, that would be boston.com and bostonherald.com). Each team has its own constantly-updated site via mlb.com, too.
Why do so many boo-hoo-hoo about how much the Yankees spend?
Are they breaking the rules? Operating at a financial loss? No and no.
If it’s such a problem then baseball should fix it. It’s not the Yankees fault that baseball has no real, independent commissioner. Should Steinbrenner voluntarily spend less? The more they win, the more money they make, the more they spend. A little thing called capitalism.
If Tampa Bay can’t support a competetive team then bye-bye Tampa Bay. Fold. Who cares? The sport doesn’t need 29 teams; I think 20 would be plenty.
Are dynasties boring? Think about the Lakers, the Celtics, the Bulls, the 49’ers, the Cowboys, the Islanders etc.
I won’t get you a ticket to Fenway Park for a Red Sox game but if you make your way to Chicago I’ll pop for the Cubs tickets and beer (or soda but in Wirgley only kids are allowed soda ) and food.
Yes, the Cubs are even more stinky than the Red Sox but you will not find a better major league park in the US to watch a baseball game than Wrigley Field. A recent poll of professional baseball players listed Wrigley Field as the number one place they liked to play in. Other stadiums are more modern but there’s no replacing the classic feel of the ‘Friendly Confines’ in Chicago. However, I did see an interview with one outfielder several years ago who said the park he liked playing in the least was Wrigley Field. His issue was that running back to catch a fly ball and running into the brick wall was a painful prospect (most fields have padding back there but Wrigley just has ivy covering a brick wall…the ivy fools the player into forgetting that a brick wall is there and the ivy provides zero cushion).
Bummer. I was going to post a short summary but ElvisL1ves partially beat me to it: The Yankees are the baseball equivalent of Manchester United: rich, arrogant, successful, loved by some, hated by many.
And this Brit also thinks that baseball is a wonderful game.
) and food.