I’ve a friend, who, since I’ve last seen has developed some new theories about dating and the state of the world.
She believes that as she must buy make up, stylish and attractive clothing and hair products to prepare for her date it is only fair and logical that the men she date be expected to pay for dates. She also believes that as women must deal with periods and other issues which men don’t have to deal with, that this is further proof that men should even the score by paying for dates.
This lead to a bit of a disagreement in the middle of our lunch.
My arguments rested on that fact that her men have not asked her to buy these expensive clothing, wear make up or put stuff in her hair. Therefore, in my opinion, it is both illogical and a bit sexist to expect them to pay for dates as compensation for these things. I expanded on this with my personal pet theory: many men probably don’t care as much about what a woman is wearing than in her general fitness level and natural attractiveness level. I also put forth that many men probably prefer women not to wear any make up at all.
After this we delved into the differences between dating in the days of lore when it was logical for men to pay and the reality that is dating now when it is logical to offer to split vs logical that men still pay, the argument escalated and lettuce may have been launched.
This is where the opinions of others come in: she’s lurked here before and would like to know which of us is closer to the general consensus on this. Which argument presented above is most illogical. (Truthfully I’m willing to admit it could be me – I tend to be a ‘react emotionally NOW, think through later’ type of girl.)
Basically: ‘Is it fair for men to be expected to pay because women pay more to prepare for the date.’
(If this should be somewhere else, please feel free to move.)
Does your friend really believe that crap? That’s pretty funny. How long has she been single?
If I were suddenly thrust back into the dating world, and a gentleman asked me to dinner, I’d expect him to pay. At the same time, I’d be prepared to pay my half if he wanted to split the check. My expecations are not based on how much I have to spend on makeup and clothes. I’d spend money on those things (mostly clothes and shoes; makeup, not so much) regardless.
I might be in a bad mood today, but I’ve never heard such an asinine thing in my life. On the rare occasions I have dated, I almost always pay (and this is fairly typical for most men), but I did it out of a sense of “wanting to be a nice guy,” and because as the guy, I often initiated the dates. I think if a couple continues past one or two dates, the nice and customary thing to do is either to take turns paying for each other, or to go Dutch. This is the most agreeable, least sexist way to handle dating. Your friend is as wrong-headed as men who think that if they pay for everything on a date, they had better be getting some kind of sex at the end. Both strike me as sad, sexist ways of thinking. Dating should not be a cost-benefit “what’s it it for me” sort of transaction. Whoever pays should do it because they feel like it, and not because they think they’re already done their part in other ways or that they will be getting something in return. If someone can’t handle that mindset, they probably aren’t mature enough to be dating.
I’ve always applied the same rule to dating as anything else - whoever does the asking does the paying. When the relationship is still new it’s “would you like to go with me to” or “may I take you to” and the asker is the payer. After a while it becomes more “let’s go do this” and then it’s dutch. That’s not hard and fast, of course, but a good rule of thumb.
Well, as a guy, I also buy nice clothes to go out in. I also buy soap, shaving cream, deodorant, etc. so that I can be presentable. The way I figure it a woman should always pay. Men’s natural tendencies veer to being cavemen. If I am going through all the trouble of grooming myself to take her out she owes me.
What I just wrote makes about as much sense as your friend. I, as the man, usually pay the first few times. After about the third date we start to alternate. And it isn’t like I ever bring it up either. The women just always do.
And as an aside, I prefer women with little to no make-up.
I think men should pay for dates (at least the first couple) because it is our society’s typical dating ritual.
Not over some half baked concept of fiscal fairness based on the cost of dinner vs. makeup. Don’t try to pretend that me shelling out for your surf and turf just balances the books with the amount of lipstick you needed to reapply after eating it. If you’re putting on $20-$50 worth of makeup for a single date, stay home. The clothes thing is a non starter, men have to buy nice duds too.
I’d also mention that our dating ritual also usually puts the onus on the men to initiate contact and start the process going. That is a stressful and unpleasant task, where we’re sure to be shot down more often than not.
Just as women are supposed to wear makeup, men are supposed to shave.
Just as women are supposed to wear nice clothing, so do the men.
Just as women are expected to deal with having periods without being reimbursed for their expenses, so also are men expected to earn their living by the sweat of their brow.
Sounds pretty silly to me - based on that logic, my job should pay me more because I’m required to wear suits and other very nice clothes (not that I’d mind…). Also, I sincerely doubt that my make-up for one night costs as much as, say, dinner and a movie. All my make-up together, maybe - but that’s supposed to last for months, not just one night.
I really believe that the person doing the asking pays for the date, or should at least offer to pay. If you’ve been dating for awhile, then you start evening things out. You pay for the movie, he pays for dinner, etc. You don’t NEED to get dressed up for dates - if I didn’t already wear make-up pretty much daily, I probably would wear very little if any on dates, either. It doesn’t cost me extra to get ready for dates than it does if I’m just going to a bar with friends - I’ll still wear make-up and get dressed up. Bottom line: she chooses how much money/effort she puts into getting ready for a date.
And to echo UrbanChic - how long has she been single?
That is absolutley foolish. I feel that the asker should be willing to pay for the first date reguardless of gender. I’d prefer to way my own way most of the time. I mean I could understand it if one member of the couple was say a struggling grad student while their partner was a successful professional and therefore picked up the tap more often, but this makeup and clothing thing is absolute idiocy.
I think that if I was a guy, I would avoid dating your friend. The whole point of dating is creating a relationship, not personal financial benefit (unless you’re a gold-digger, in which case, see my first sentence). If a guy pays, it’s because he’s being nice and because he asked you out, not because he’s obligated. I would allow a guy to pay the first time for both only if I planned to pay the second time (and if I was willing to go a second time). Otherwise, I would insist on paying my half.
Ask your friend if she would be okay dating a guy who did not preen himself beforehand or didn’t wear nice clothes. After all, he’s paying, so shouldn’t that be OK?
The person asking for the date should pay for the date. Yes, I’ve paid for movies and food before when I asked the guy out. Then, if all dates go well and we enter into a relationship, whomever wants to go to the movie pays for both, or it’s split, or whoever has the money shells out the cash. Before I met my husband, I paid for more than half of the times.
“Would you like to go for a movie?” “Oh, I’d love too, but I haven’t got the money.” “Don’t worry, I’ll pay!”
Being compensated for your makeup by your future dates is just plain silly. And, as has been pointed out by many posters above, men also spend money on looking sharp. Do they want the cost of their cologne deducted from their share of the night’s activities? I’ve never heard of that before.
I’m snippy 'coz it’s four am, but I have to agree with the mention of that being one of the most asinine things I’ve ever heard.
If a guy as asked me out on a date, then I will offer to pay my way. If he declines, then I let him pay. But I still make the offer, because I don’t feel like he owes me anything for the time I’ve spent getting dressed/made up before hand.
You made a very good point there, Lady of the Lake, so I’m putting your argument down as the most logical. Men will expect their date looks nice. That’s a given, as it’s a date and you’re putting on your best face. But they don’t expect that you (the general you) will spend $400 on a pair of shoes, $350 on a dress and so on with the makeup and hair and whatnot. If you do that yourself, it’s your own damnedfool problem, he shouldn’t have to pay for it.
Dating, IMHO, is about sharing a good time, getting to know someone in slightly more intimate circumstances than at work or at a party. It’s not a financial transaction about who shows the more interest in the other based on how much they spend/how much they put out.
Your friend might get a fair few dates there, but I don’t think she’s going to be in a meaningful relationship for any appreciable length of time if that’s the way she looks at the world.
[Aside: GRRR. Stupid work proxy, keeps eating my post. This is the 5th time I’ve tried to post this damned thing in the course of the last hour!]
Yes, yes I can honestly assure you she does believe what I wrote above. I even repeated it back to her after lunch to make sure I got her basic premise right (as mentioned above she’d agreed to sharing our disagreement with the Board).
She is 29 year old and just started ‘dating’ dating last year.
(She’d been on ‘dates’ perviously but it was always with the same boy who’d been interested in her since college - who she wasn’t interested in.)
I’ve never heard her talk like this before, was kind of a shock.
This horse is almost dead, but I’m really bored today so I’m gonna beat it just a little more.
Nope. Both people are on the date: any preparation was done on their own time at their own expense. What’s next, charging by the hour to reimburse her for the time she spends doing her hair? :dubious:
I agree with those who say that whoever does the asking should expect to do the paying, at least for the first few dates. Even when I haven’t done the asking, I offer to split the cost; whether my offer is accepted (and/or whether I insist) varies from situation to situation. There is no longer any reason for one sex to be “expected” to bear the financial burden of dating (or the emotional burden, for that matter: I do my share of asking/approaching).
Besides, where would that leave women like me who don’t wear makeup, and don’t buy special “date” clothes? I’d wind up owing the guy money after the date! :eek:
I laughed when I read this, as I’d said the same thing to her. She disagreed as ‘men don’t spend as much money on clothing as women.’ (if I can remember correctly)
I tried to argue that men spend money differently, but DO spend money to impress the opposite sex (such as buying a nice car for dates) but she feels women in general spend more. It’s hard to argue with this belief as one can’t just google ‘male spending habits to impress women’…
Wow. Not to knock young people, but I thought we were talking about someone in her early twenties. Twenty-nine is way too old hold such silly beliefs.
Hopefully, she’s reading this and will realize how ludicrous she sounds. If not, I hope she shares her, uh, wisdom, with her dates. I’m sure they’d be interested to know just what they might be getting into. Who knows, though. I’m sure there are men who feel that if a woman takes the time to get all dolled up and grace them with her company, the least they can do is spring for the date.
Actually, she’ll make an ideal trophy wife. Knock 'em dead hottie? Low IQ? Superficial?
Pair her up with some poor schmuck with bucks (oxymoron?) and all that’s left is to shop for the soccer van.
